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Imperial question.

Started by Greg G., January 09, 2010, 02:36:47 PM

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Greg G.

I thought Imperials were just recycled or leftover 202s with plating?  So why does this description say it's NOT a plated 202?  

http://tinyurl.com/y8njwlu

That brings to mind a second question - Couldn't anybody with the facilities and skills necessary make an Imperial out of a 202 by cleaning it up, plating it, and putting a newer dial and handset on it?

QuoteTHIS IS AN ORIGINAL IMPERIAL NOT A BLACK 202 PLATED
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
- Mike Row
e

Jim Stettler

Obviously this is a plated Imperial. I think they took an Imperial and replated it w/ 24K gold.

You can take a black 202, strip it and plate it (like bell did) and you would have a plated (black) 202. (Like a Bell Imperial)
But if you take a plated Imperial, strip it and relate then you would have a phone like this. ( a replated imperial vs a plated black 202).
In regards to having phones plated. Some guys do. There are various plating shops that will do it for you.
Some collectors buy kits from places like Texas Plating and plate telephones and parts. There are many finishs avaliable. The key to self-plating is surface prep.

The cheap (reasonable priced) hobby kits were created for the gun collecting hobby. I think Texas plating has some telephone planting hints avaliable, I couldn't find them on a quick search .Search for for plating kits. I have heard good things about Caswell plating kits.

If anyone is interested I can probably get Steve Brink's article on how he went about plating a candlestick, I think this was a Potbelly.
Jim S.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Dan/Panther

I use Caswell, because they have a good selection, and are on line.
As Far as I know Texas Plating does not have a website ??? I've had great results on Radios, and model trains using the brass plating, and Copy chrome Plating kits.
I've not tried it but Caswell CLAIMS you can touch up scratches with the copy chrome kits.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

Greg G.

#3
Quote from: Jim S. on January 09, 2010, 02:55:08 PM
Obviously this is a plated Imperial. I think they took an Imperial and replated it w/ 24K gold.

You can take a black 202, strip it and plate it (like bell did) and you would have a plated (black) 202. (Like a Bell Imperial)
But if you take a plated Imperial, strip it and relate then you would have a phone like this. ( a replated imperial vs a plated black 202).
Jim S.

I guess my question is what did Bell do that anybody with the right skills and facilities couldn't do with a black 202?  It's still the same thing in the end, it would seem.  If I wanted an Imperial, why would I be concerned wether it was a refurbished one originally done by Bell, (like this one) rather than one that was not done by Bell, but rather professionally done by somebody in their shop?  This person did everything but the replating in his shop, but if I wanted an Imperial (I don't, really) I don't understand why it would make a difference, since all Bell did was jazz up their leftover 202s.
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
- Mike Row
e

Phonesrfun

Greg:

As far as I am concerned, your suppositions are correct.  The Imperial is nothing but a dressed up and refurbished 202.... errr... make that a D1 mount.

I suspect the e-bay ad description was probably trying to appeal to the Uber-collector that wants a real "original" Imperial, rather than a made-up Imperial.  For me it is hard to distinguish between the two, but there are some that are that conscious of the distinction.

-Bill
-Bill G

Jim Stettler

The only difference in having an Imperial replated vs creating 1 from a black set, is that the base and hook switch and dial and handset and cord are already correct. It is quite easy to have one created, but it is probably cheapest to watch ebay and find a nice one cheap.

The difference on the hookswitch  is paint color, the difference on the base is  that the imperials had white bases. The Imperial dials are the same clear hollow fW and white base as a colored 302 dial, the handset difference is g-type elements vs F elements. A white plastic or off-white painted handset is proper. A coiled white handset cord is proper. For the subset you need the later G type subset vs the F or E type subset that comes with the standard black. The Cover should be painted to match the hook switch.

For the money, it is cheaper to replate a real Imperial.

Jim S.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Jim Stettler

[quote author=Jim S. link=topic=1997.msg26820#msg26820 date=1263066908

If anyone is interested I can probably get Steve Brink's article on how he went about plating a candlestick, I think this was a Potbelly.
Jim S.
[/quote]
I guess Steve's candlestick was an Oilcan.
Here is a link to his article.
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/singwire/nickel/nickel.htm

Jim S.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

bingster

Has anybody ever seen a solid ivory handset that had grooves on the handle and caps?  Something's just not right here.

As far as I'm concerned it's a fantasy phone.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, but stating so emphatically that everything is correct is definitely wrong.
= DARRIN =



Phonesrfun

My ivory Imperial has a painted F1 bakelite handset with grooves in both the handle and the caps, but it had been factory-modified to take the U1 receiver and the T1 transmitter, but has the original fabric coiled cord.  However, it is painted bakelite and brown bakelite underneath the paint.  It required them to bore the receiver area out a bit to take the U1 receiver element.  A U1 won't go in far enough in an unmodified F1 handset.  A special 2-piece spacer is used to allow the T1 transmitter to fit in the larger F1 transmitter space.

I have an ivory 354 that has a plastic F1 handset that is glued together, like I believe all plastic F1 handsets were, that has an HA1 receiver and an F1 transmitter.  It has no grooves on either the handle or the caps.

If both of my handsets are authentic, my question is whether Ma Bell used plastic or bakelite F1 handsets on the Imperials, or both.

What gets me about the auction is the handset cord.  It looks like one that may be from a 500 since it has the grommet on the part of the cord coming out of the handset.  And the cord looks too new.

So, I too, wonder about the authenticity of it.

-Bill G

Dennis Markham

I just checked the only three Ivory plastic handsets I have that are pure plastic, NOT painted.

Gold Imperial.  No grooves on handset or caps.  HA1 Receiver.  T1 Conversion X-Mitter.

Ivory 302.  No grooves on handset or caps.  HA1 Receiver, F1 X-Mitter.

Ivory 354.  No grooves on handset or caps. HA1 Receiver, F1 X-Mitter. But does have the grommet on the cord at the handset like Bill mentioned.  I believe it's original to the phone.  From 1955.

The two painted F1's.  One a Continental.  Grooved handset and caps.  F1/HA1.  The other is a Silver Imperial, painted handset, grooves on handset and caps.  Both conversion elements, U1 and T1.

So this holds with Bingster's theory.  Solid Ivory, no grooves on handset or caps.

benhutcherson

I spent some time examining the handset, and am convinced it's painted


Look at the highlighted areas below, where you can see what appears to be brown bakelite poking out.





Also, the underside of the handset doesn't appear to have the tell-tale cut-out

Phonesrfun

OK, I just hauled out a few more I have in boxes:

Ivory Continental with painted bakelite handset with grooves; F1/HA1 elements
Ivory 302 with plastic handset, no grooves; F1/HA1 elements
Ivory 302 with plastic handset, no grooves; F1/HA1 elements

So, to recap:
I have two 302 and one 354 all with plastic F1 ungrooved handsets and F1/HA1 elements
I have one Continental with a painted F1 bakelite grooved handset with F1/HA1 elements
I have one Imperial with a painted F1 bakelite grooved handset with T1/U1 elements

Enough to confuse anyone, I'm sure.
-Bill G

Phonesrfun

Oh, well, regardless of the authenticity of the handset, I must say that it is a very nice restoration!

-Bill G

Jim Stettler

It is a nice looking phone, But it is a fantasy set.
Besides the handset being wrong, so is the baseplate cover, dial, fingerwheel and cords. The plating is the wrong metal as well.

Regarding plastic handsets and G elements, My first Imperial had a plastic handset and different innards to accept G elements.  My only other plastic handset Imperial took F elements, My painted handset took G elements.

Most Imperials were turned into lamps by the pioneers, many of the lamps were turned back into phones by collectors. If anyone has a lamp w/plastic handset, it would be interesting to see what elements it took.
Jim S.

You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

bingster

Quote from: Phonesrfun on January 09, 2010, 11:37:02 PM
Oh, well, regardless of the authenticity of the handset, I must say that it is a very nice restoration!

I agree.  The original gold colored finish doesn't hold a candle to actual gold plating.   It wouldn't have taken much effort to make it perfect, though (matching cords, proper 5J or 6J dial, etc).

So here's another Imperial question:  Jim touched on this a few posts back.  Since these generally come with G handset components, how does that affect their connection to subsets?  With a 685 subset (the modern one with the 425 network), are the connections the same as the ones that have been worked out for connection of this subset to older phones?  Or do the G components necessitate some sort of change to that wiring scheme?

= DARRIN =