The lock related portion of this topic was moved to Pay Phone Locks (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=112.0).
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16232.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16232.0)
This conversation can continue here as the phone is worked on. Please refer lock related comments to the lock topic to make them easily found by other users needing to unlock/change/modify the locks on their phones.
Okay I'll start here.
This all began with identifying what I bought on ebay and determining it was a "Frankenphone" consisting of an AE LBP 82 55 with a lower Gray housing.
The other thread has all the details on me getting the upper lock to work and now I'll start with getting this thing to work.
I've got all the parts from Stan S and Jim... thank you!!!
I've installed the coin counter and relay/hopper. I have wiring diagrams but I'm not great at reading them. First, on the relay the schematic shows a lug #4 which I don't see.
All I have is a #1,2,3 and a G, ground I assume.
Mark
Some of the very old single coil coin relays had a screw terminal stamped 'G'. On newer relays the same terminal was stamped '4'.
Don't forget the small brown jumper on the coin relay that I forget to send. It's mounted right on the relay between terminals #2 and #3 on the diagram.
Stan S.
Ok got that, thank you. I'll make up one and start there. I'll stick with wiring the relay before I go to the next parts.
Stan - I already have another question. For the WHITE wire, I see it goes from G, on the relay to the right side on the second position down, on the bakelite strip.
Is there any reason why I can't crimp on a connector and just screw it on that position? And is there another jumper from the second position to the top? I see that on the picture you sent me but not in the schematic.
Mark
The picture was of a payphone in my collector that has a modular cable attached so it can be connected to a controller.
The second position down on the terminal strip is the ground (low side of the coil of the coin relay). Has nothing to do with earth ground. The controller connects to the top 3 terminal positions; tip, ground and ring.
I'd solder the white wire on the right side of the second position of the strip. Might as well do it the way it was done originally.
Stan S.
Meant to say #4 on that one. Did the "G" mean a color at one time?
I went ahead and soldered that in and routed the wire down and to the terminal on the coin relay.
One down... more to go! Thanks again Stan.
Mark
'G' originally meant earth ground.
If you look closely below each terminal the bakelite is embossed L1, G and L2.
Making some progress now. I removed the back and soldered the red and green wires.
Here's my attempt at clean wiring! I guess I should have used the string but I only have small zip ties.
I'm confident I have my coin relay wired properly. I did my best to make the wiring look clean... same old red zip ties.
I'm stuck though. I'll list my issues.
1. The auxiliary terminal assembly. What does it wire to? And it screws in the back case but there's two nuts. Should those go in the back of the case? They don't look like they need to be there.
2. The upper case wiring. The dial wires appear to be connected but I have green, red, black, and white wires coming from a relay and a switch. I can't seem to see that on the wiring diagram.
Adding pictures in a minute.
Mark
A picture (or two) is worth a thousand words.
See attached.
Stan S.
Mark
The wiring diagram for your payphone is Figure 2.
It's page 3/4 of 9.
Section 476-202-403 of the Technical Manual.
Quote"1. The auxiliary terminal assembly. What does it wire to?
And it screws in the back case but there's two nuts. Should those go in the back of the case? They don't look like they need to be there."
Mark and all.
None of the screws that come out of the back of any AE payphone should have nuts. All the holes in the back castings were tapped. If there are nuts on any of the screws it means either the screw threads aren't the proper size or the tapped holes in the back are stripped.
Mark
The 1A assembly Jim sent you was NOS. The nuts were put on to hold the stacked parts together. They were supposed to be taken off and tossed before the assembly was mounted in the payphone.
Stan S.
Quote"Here's my attempt at clean wiring! I guess I should have used the string but I only have small zip ties."
Mark
In a pinch, heavy waxed Dental Floss works fine as lacing chord.
Stan S.
Let's try that again.
Mark
In a pinch, heavy waxed Dental Floss works fine as lacingCORD
Stan S.
Those picture were perfect! Thank you.
Attached is a photo of my wiring, along with some dental floss!
Now, where do the wires for the auxiliary terminal assembly go? I cant' see it on the wiring diagram. I might be looking right at it but it's not registering. :(
Last (I think): Jim You sent me two small resisters. Do those go in parallel where the yellow jumper and Dial Black/NC Black wires are? I'd guessing they do.
Mark
Only one resistor is used. I put 2 in the box just in case.
Follow the pictures and rebuild the contact assembly then reinstall it.
The blue wire soldered to the blade connects to L1 (the top screw) on the bakelite strip.
I hope the wire is long enough.
Use the diagram for the LPB82-55. Don't look at the one for the LPB82.
Have fun!
Stan S.
Thanks Stan. I said Jim on those resisters... sorry about that!
I'll get to this tomorrow afternoon and post back my results.
Okay the contact assembly is done. I faced the screw tabs toward the outside though. It fit better that way since they seemed close to the bakelite strip. I used the gray wire though... I just noticed that.
The wire is plenty long... it's about two inches too long. I'll just wrap it neatly.
Resister is in. What's it for?
The line cord was already in this phone. It's connected to L1, G, and L2. It did work just as an extension phone but didn't dial out of course.
Is this phone ready to plug in?
UPDATE: I plugged it in but it still won't dial out.
Mark
The screw tabs are now being used to keep the total length of the stacked parts equal to the insulating tubes that are over the mounting screws. If you had a belt sander the tubes could be sanded down to the length without those tabs. Assuming you don't have a belt sander, this is the easiest way to do it.
The 47 ohm resistor is across the coin microphone. It shunts the audio output of the mic. so your eardrums survive the deposit of a quarter.
I just noticed the blue jumper between the top screw terminal (L1) on the bakelite strip and the one below it (G). You better take it off. I have absolutely no idea why it's there.
Connect the phone line between the top screw (L1) and third screw down (L2) on the bakelite strip. Push the coin trigger (orange plastic part in the hopper) down to simulate the deposit of a coin. Make sure that the spring wire of the nickel counting assembly isn't in the slot of the arm (see the first page Fig.3) of the Technical Manual.
With a little luck and assuming nothing else in the phone has been played with, the phone should work. That's also assuming there's nothing wrong with the dial and your phone company supports rotary dialing. We can only hope!
Good luck!
Stan S.
Ok I removed the jumper. I'll give it a try again.
Still no dial ability.
I'm wondering: should I gently pull out those contact tabs on the bakelite terminal? The bottom one is out a bit farther than the rest. Should I use some contact cleaner on them (and the opposite side) or use a pencil eraser?
Also, on the contact part of the upper case (dial) the top contact is bent at an angle. Should it be the same as the rest on that contact strip?
Mark
The contact in the top is fine. It should have a slightly different shape. The fingers on the strip should be bent out just a little so they make contact with the points of the contacts in the top.
I have a feeling that your dial has a problem. Since it originally didn't dial, maybe the dial should have been looked at first. Do you think it is returning at the proper speed after you dial a 9 or a zero or is it returning slowly. It's possible that's the problem.
Stan S.
No it seems to dial like it's new... no slowness that I can tell.
Mark
Warm up your ohm meter. We'll take a few measurements tomorrow. I want to make sure that the pulsing contacts of the dial aren't being shorted by the coin relay or the nickel counter. A normal function of both of these assemblies is to prevent dialing until the initial deposit of 10 cents is made. If we find that isn't the problem we'll check the dial itself.
If you're curious how the coin mechanism works in an LPB82-55, below is a copy of a posting I made a while back when I was helping another member named Stan get his working.
QuoteThere are two sets of switch contacts in the payphone in parallel with the pulsing contacts of the dial. The first set of switch contacts is the microswitch on the nickel counter. The second set of switch contacts is located on the coin relay. When either of these sets of contacts are shorted the dial is useless.
Both the coil of the coin relay and the coil of the reset electromagnet of the nickel counter have voltage applied to them at the same time by the collect or refund voltage sent down the phone line and ground by the Telephone Central Office.
When the payphone is sitting idle with the handset hung-up, the microswitch contacts of the nickel counter are in the OPEN position. However, the switch contacts on the coin relay are closed. Which makes it impossible for the dial to work.
Mr. George Gray comes along and wants to make a call. He lifts the handset of the payphone and gets a dial tone. (All prepay AEs gave a dial tone when the handset was lifted.)
If George tries to use the dial it won't break dial tone because the pulsing contacts are shorted by the coin relay.
George deposits the first nickel. The nickel travels down the coin track hitting the spring wire of the nickel counter. The position of the microswitch on the nickel counter changes- the contacts are now shorted.
The nickel continues down the coin track and falls into the hopper, hitting the coin vane. The coin vane is the activator for the switch contacts on the coin relay. The set of contacts on the coin relay that were shorted originally now are an open circuit. However, since the contacts on the microswitch are shorted the dial pulsing contacts are still disabled. Turn the dial and it still will not break dial tone.
George now deposits the second nickel. It travels down the coin track and hits the spring wire on the microswitch. The position of the spring wire changes again and OPENS the microswitch contacts The second nickel continues down the coin track and falls into the hopper. Since the coin vane of the coin relay has already been triggered (in the down position) the second nickel has no affect on it. We now have two nickels sitting in the hopper with both sets of switch contacts (microswitch and coin relay) in the open position. George now turns the dial which breaks dial tone. George can now make is call. He's probably calling some company in Hartford Connecticut.
When George's call is finished he hangs up. The central office sends a collect or return voltage between the phone line and ground that triggers BOTH THE COIN RELAY AND THE RESET ELECTROMAGNET OF THE NICKEL COUNTER putting them in their reset positions. Both the nickel counter and the coin relay are now ready to handle the next call.
Let's assume poor George Gray puts in the first nickel and for whatever reason decides he doesn't want to complete the call. When he hangs up the Central Office will send a return voltage down the phone line. George will get back his nickel and both the coin relay and the nickel counter will be reset.
Remember, the payphone sitting idle has BOTH sets of switch contacts in the OPEN position. If nothing travels down the nickel slide of the coin track George Gray can make his call by depositing a quarter or a dime.
Could my line plug be bad? It doesn't lock in but I held it in, got dial tone and it would not dial out. I'll probably need to replace it.
The ohm meter is warmed up and ready... I'll be home until about 630 PST. Home tomorrow after 4PM.
Is L1, G, L2 correct for the cord?
I plugged the phone back in, deposited money and got the dial to work! A call to Stan helped me to understand what was going on.
So now it looks like I have a working phone. :)
I'm installing a new line cord though since the clip on the old one is broken.
Do I need three wires - to G, L2 and L1 ? I want to make sure it will work as a payphone when I get my controller.
Thanks Stan S, Jim, Dave PEI and everyone else who chimed in.
Mark
Don't worry about the modular cord at this point. Whatever you use will be fine for the payphone to work without coin control.
If you end up with one of my controllers it is supplied with a modular cable for the payphone that is built to match the controller.
Enjoy the payphone.
Stan S.
I removed that white wire from the switch and tied the relay. I have a dial tone but it wouldn't dial out.
I untied the coin relay and replaced the white wire and now it dials out, but the coins are just sitting in the "checkpoint" area...
I know I need to wire the relay back up but not sure what I did wrong there.
Mark
Was the coin trigger (orange plastic piece) in the down position when you tried to dial?
Stan S.
If the coin trigger was in the down position, I have a feeling you disconnected the wrong white wire. I think you disconnected the one from the dial instead of the nickel counter.
Just a guess.
Stan S.
I just checked and it was the nickel counter. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here. The dial was a thicker gauge wire. Is it bad to leave the nickel counter wire attached?
Mark
It's not bad to leave the white wire connected. The function of the nickel counter is to short the dial pulsing contacts with EVER OTHER nickel that you deposit. That seems to be what's happening.
If you disconnect one of the wires from the microswitch of the nickel counted you won't have the problem you're experiencing. You will be able to deposit as many nickels as you want and the dial will always work.
If I tie the relay back in, how far in do I tie it? And the correct way is to press on the coin trigger and then tie the relay? This is exactly what I did and couldn't dial out.
Mark
After you choose the direction of the coin flow, tie the armature of the coin relay as far back as it can go.
Stan S.
I tried that but the "trap door" part kept holding the coin and would not release unless I undid the relay and allowed it to come out fully, and then back in. It seems to automatically revert back to putting the coins in the coin return.
This really isn't a huge deal to me though. I can live with them going to the return but I was just curious why it won't stay flipped to the box.
QuoteIt seems to automatically revert back to putting the coins in the coin return.
Mark
What you observed is correct.
To lock the coin relay in the collect position you have to push down ON THE LEFT SIDE shoulder of the magnetic card
This will move the armature back and also flip the coin vane to the collect position.
While pushing on the left hand shoulder of the plastic card, push and hold the armature back with your other hand. Don't allow it to move forward or it will revert back to the return position. You can now stop pushing on the magnetic card while you keep the armature pushed back.
Wrap the cable tie around the top of the relay while pushing the armature back.
The coin trap should now be down and out of the way. The coin vane should be directing the coins to the vault compartment.
Stan S.
I tried this and it will allow one or two coins to the coin box, then the next coin stops at the trap door part, even if I keep the armature tied all the way back as far as it goes.
Mark
I now understand what's causing the problem.
I sent you a personal message.
Stan S.
Stan discovered that my hopper/relay were not meshed properly. The flapper guide (sorry for my wording!) wasn't in its track. It was about a three minute fix. Now I've successfully tied the armature so the coins drop to the can.
And speaking of the can...
I noticed my newer single slot coin lid fit on the old can from my three slot. So I ordered a can/lid on ebay and used that lid for my old can. Problem was that the lock hit the lid ever so slightly. My "fix" was just gently pounding around the lid, attached to the can. It didn't take too much at all and now the can with lid easily slides inside and the lock works fine.
(anyone here? - seems like Stan is the only one. Glad he's here! :-\)
Mark -Great to hear you've gotten your payphone sorted out. Those coin cans are sometimes finicky. I did the same thing you did - using a newer lid on an older can. My lid mechanism would hang up sometimes. I realized that the issue was a small dent in the metal that caused interference. I was able to slide some sheetmetal under that area and carefully pound out the dent. The cans are a neat design, but there must have been more than a few malfunctions back in the day......
On the silence of others on the forum, I believe we were simply deferring to the "chief surgeon of pay phones", Stan S.
Thanks for the reply Paul, and sorry it took me so dang long. I just noticed this TODAY, and it's September 15! I must have missed the notification.
I finally mounted the phone in my room on a cabinet. There was a mark to the right of the phone from something I had stuck there so I quickly found a picture on the internet, printed it and taped it there.
That's Cool! Looks great and it works! Congrats!
I know almost nothing on payphones and I know a lot of others here are in the same boat. Once Stan chimed in there was nothing for me to offer!