Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Greetings everyone—

I picked up a black AE90 wall phone yesterday.  Overall in good condition, however the black wiring had a break in the plastic (internal wires were ok — I wrapped with some black electrical tape), and a chip in the screw-on earpiece. 

I have included pictures inside and out and wanted to see if the group had any more info on this particular phone?  It has a Jan. 1975 stamp on the bottom, so I'm assuming it is not an early model.  Is there anywhere I can replace the chipped earpiece, and is it best to leave the wire split, or is there a better repair?

Finally, with the wiring it currently has, how easy would it be to make it operational with a modern phone line?  Is it possible to make it ring and dial?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Jake

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Pics of the internals.

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You can get a replacement AE handset cord and receiver cap from Phoneco fairly reasonable.
Phoneco (608) 582-4124 Their website is down but, you can always call them and Mary will help you out.

And yes it can certainly be made to work depending on what type line you have and they make Voip adapters also
for those who don't have a standard landline that accepts pulse dialing.

That is a frequency ringer, the bad news, but it is a 25 Hz frequency ringer, the good news, and being so close to the POTS line 20 Hz, should ring on a POTS line. Not sure about VOIP adapters, others can help with that.

You can get a correct Straight-line ringer for it and handset caps from Old Phone Works, and you can get a new handset from Ericofon.com.  You can get a new handset cord from Old Phone Shop and Old Phone Works.  You don't need to convert to modular, just hard-wire phone to jack with stiff line wire, not cords.

Mike

Quote from: TelePlay on July 31, 2022, 02:41:15 PMThat is a frequency ringer, the bad news, but it is a 25 Hz frequency ringer, the good news, and being so close to the POTS line 20 Hz, should ring on a POTS line. Not sure about VOIP adapters, others can help with that.

Many VoIP adapters will let you set the ringing frequency, especially in the lower range (16-30), though they may go all the way to 60... (I haven't played much with that function, as I have very few frequency ringers, and most are 20 - 30 Hz).

Jim

Jake ,
       Nice phone , its a AE 90 M .  AE Circular#1905, 1961 , pg.43.  stub.

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Thanks to all, I will look for the replacement "cosmetic" parts through the sources you provided. 

I am a bit confused on the wiring.  Please bear with me, I am new to all of this.  I believe my line can handle pulse dialing because I currently have another rotary phone hooked up.

Two questions--Is there an adapter for the line cord considering it is simply a bunch of loose wires?  I am only familiar with modern line-in connectors that would plug right into the wall as-is.

Also, will I need to re-wire the inside to make it work on a modern line?  If so, how would I find out how to re-wire?

Thanks again to all.

Quote from: KYdealsPR0 on August 01, 2022, 08:22:46 AMThanks to all, I will look for the replacement "cosmetic" parts through the sources you provided. 

I am a bit confused on the wiring.  Please bear with me, I am new to all of this.  I believe my line can handle pulse dialing because I currently have another rotary phone hooked up.

Two questions--Is there an adapter for the line cord considering it is simply a bunch of loose wires?  I am only familiar with modern line-in connectors that would plug right into the wall as-is.

Also, will I need to re-wire the inside to make it work on a modern line?  If so, how would I find out how to re-wire?

Thanks again to all.

Being that you already have a rotary dial phone connected to your existing telephone service you shouldn't have any problems with another.

The hard wire style line cord can be removed and replaced with a modular ended line cord with fork connects at one end to hook up to the same place as the hard wire one came from with the exception we only need to use the Red and Green wires nowadays and it will plug right in to a modular outlet. This also is available at either one of the suppliers mentioned.

Hopefully you won't have to do any rewiring but, the chances are always good that you will but, with all the experience here you shouldn't have a problem finding someone to help when that time comes, if it does.

I also have a AE standard ringer for you to swap out the frequency ringer with if you choose to dive into this project, just let me know via PM sir.

This link shows what I use, the whole topic is full of good advice.


http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18650.msg192108#msg192108

Thanks, I reached out to Mary at Phoneco and she is working up an order for a receiver cap, handset cord, and surface mount box to convert the hard wire line to modular.

I read though the link that TelePlay provided, thank you.  Because the insulation is already stripped off the ends of my wires, do I need a spade tip/crimper, or would I just connect the raw wires?

Again, thanks to all.  Getting one step closer here.

Quote from: KYdealsPR0 on August 01, 2022, 10:54:22 AMBecause the insulation is already stripped off the ends of my wires, do I need a spade tip/crimper, or would I just connect the raw wires?

It's best to crimp a self piercing open ended spade lug onto a wire which helps to keep the end wire from breaking if flexed. Some seasoned sellers just wrap a wire around a terminal to avoid the few cents cost of installing a spade lug.

If you are not going to do a lot of this type of wire work, the $20 or so cost for the correct crimping tool and a couple of dozen spade lugs won't be worth the investment for you. In that case, cut off the old end and strip off a bit of insulation to get to good wire before wrapping it around a terminal.

Spade lugs make everything so much easier and make the phone look professional if the next owner ever opened up the phone or surface connector. Wrapping wire works as well if just doing a few connections for yourself. I personally would never sell a phone without all connections being spade lugs.

It's up to you, it's your phone.

Have to say, I agree with the above post. I have opened several phones to find bare wrapped wires around terminals. Makes me immediately think 'what else has this phone been through'.

Kits are cheaply available with various size spades and crimping tool. Doesn't take long to do and makes a nicer end result. IIRC my first kit cost me less than a tenner, in a small container to keep everything tidy in.

Thanks gents, when I get my parts, I will evaluate everything and "make the call" on which route to go.  Obviously the spade lugs will make everything look nicer, just need to think through if I will be doing enough of these in the future to justify the kit.

If you are considering a crimper and spade lugs, this is one of the better of quite a few crimper topics:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4071.msg175922#msg175922

This link to a crimper search on eBay, from reply #57, showed many on eBay for $13 with free shipping from a US seller:

eBay HS-202B Crimper Search (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=HS-202B+Portable+Hand+Crimping+Tool&LH_PrefLoc=1&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.XHS-202B.TRS0&_nkw=HS-202B&_sacat=0)


I get lugs from DigiKey (link in the topic reply) which states there (quite inexpensive in bulk, 100 or more are below 10 cents each, and fast delivery) that are easily cut apart with a small wire cutter from the cut tape length you order:

"As of this post, the 22-28 gauge self piercing spade lug connectors can be purchased in bulk for a good price from DigiKey. These spade lugs are about $0.08 each from DigiKey, cheapest I've found anywhere, at the 250 quantity price break. I bought 250 from them for $17.57 plus $1.06 tax and $3.21 shipping for a total $21.84 or $0.087 each. They are yellow in color.

    https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/61498-1/A29922CT-ND/294360

They sell 100 for $8.15 plus $3.36 shipping plus tax for about $12.50 or $0.125 each. Hard to find them cheaper anywhere, unless you just want a few and don't mind paying a bit more for less inventory you will never use.

They also have this in light gray for a little bit more ($20.77 for 250 light grey and $9.64 for 100 - both plus tax and $3.36 shipping).

    https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/61498-2/A29923CT-ND/294361 "

Opened up this subset and found an example of each, the newer beige flat line cord has spade lugs on red and green but the dark grey mounting cord has its red, green, yellow and black solid conductors wrapped causally around their terminals. The wrapping just doesn't look WE proper, right, even if the connections are good.

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I've seen this practice in a lot of places were only techs would have there hands into sadly.
Some are more into being quick and out of there then taking the minute or two to do a job right and neat.

My parts came in and I have had success in some areas but still need help with a couple of things.  I added the modular adapter and connected to the wall and it gave me a dial tone and dialed out perfectly.  It did not ring when dialed, however.  Is there anything I can adjust, or will I need a different ringer?  If so, what is the best source?  Phoneco or elsewhere?

Also, the handset cord I received from Phoneco has different ends than my original cord.  I am including pics.  There is only red, green, and yellow on the new cord, and the red has two spade lugs, one at the end, and another located in the middle of one end.  One end of the cord has inner wires that are much longer than the other, and the cord itself is much shorter than my original cord.  This was invoiced as a 6ft cord, does that appear accurate?  Doesn't seem like it would be 6 ft even if it were stretched as far as it will go.

Any help or advice with the ringer and/or cord would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks to those who have helped me get this far.

Jake

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Here's one. I think this is a straight line equivalent. Parts are expensive, this is about right but shipping is extra.

https://www.oldphoneworks.com/automatic-electric-type-80-ringer-assembly.html

Phonecoinc may have them. Also sometimes on eBay or other parts suppliers.

Before you go buying another ringer, have you tested your ringer out of circuit, stand alone, to see if it does or does not work? Someone should be able to give you a wiring diagram on how to do that.

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Here's a 25 Hz on eBay that should work on a 20 Hz POTS line. This is not a SL ringer, it's the same frequency as the one you now have.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313080042147

While prices or parts is always high, at that price it should be on eBay for a very long time.

I was assuming you tested the ringer you have before you said it doesn't work. It could just be the way it is wired into the phone. There is help below this to test the ringer "out of circuit" and wire the ringer into the phone if it does work.

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Is the black capacitor wire on terminal 9 (GROUND) or 8 (Line 2) or something else?

Quote from: KYdealsPR0 on August 05, 2022, 11:41:52 PMMy parts came in and I have had success in some areas but still need help with a couple of things.  I added the modular adapter and connected to the wall and it gave me a dial tone and dialed out perfectly.  It did not ring when dialed, however.  Is there anything I can adjust, or will I need a different ringer?  If so, what is the best source?  Phoneco or elsewhere?

Also, the handset cord I received from Phoneco has different ends than my original cord.  I am including pics.  There is only red, green, and yellow on the new cord, and the red has two spade lugs, one at the end, and another located in the middle of one end.  One end of the cord has inner wires that are much longer than the other, and the cord itself is much shorter than my original cord.  This was invoiced as a 6ft cord, does that appear accurate?  Doesn't seem like it would be 6 ft even if it were stretched as far as it will go.

Any help or advice with the ringer and/or cord would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks to those who have helped me get this far.

Jake

Personally I've never seen a handset cord with 3 wires and 4 connectors before, I think someone made a boo boo sending this to you.
What you need is a AE 4 conductor handset cord for a wall phone, this certainly looks like its for a desk set.
Let me see if I have the proper one in my stash. I'll PM you with what I find, we know I have the ringer.

Quote from: TelePlay on August 06, 2022, 12:22:16 AMHere's a 25 Hz on eBay that should work on a 20 Hz POTS line. Not a SL ringer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313080042147

Thank you, the one that I have is a 25 Hz.  Should it be working if I have other rotary phones that work on the same line?

Quote from: RDPipes on August 06, 2022, 08:03:59 AMPersonally I've never seen a handset cord with 3 wires and 4 connectors before, I think someone made a boo boo sending this to you.
What you need is a AE 4 conductor handset cord for a wall phone, this certainly looks like its for a desk set.
Let me see if I have the proper one in my stash. I'll PM you with what I find, we know I have the ringer.

Thanks for checking.  Let me know.  I thought it looked odd compared to the one I was replacing.  Much shorter and less wires.

check your PM . stub

Jake,
      Need to find out if your network is a 1154-A or 1120-A.  stub

Here's the wiring to check if ringer will work. stub

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Since one transmitter wire and one receiver wire in a 4-conductor cord go to the same screw terminal on the network,  it is possible to use a 3-conductor cord with the red wire with 2 spade connectors in place of 2 separate wires...don't know if AE did this on the early sets.

(WE preferred to use 4 conductors on their 500 set handset cord. It was thought that the cord would last longer.)

Quote from: poplar1 on August 06, 2022, 05:26:07 AMIs the black capacitor wire on terminal 9 (GROUND) or 8 (Line 2) or something else?

If it is on 9, then there needs to be a jumper (short wire) between 9 and 8.

Also, even if the ringer is connected properly, you may notice that it is not hitting the gongs. So the gongs will have to be placed closer together by loosening the screws and turning them.
Can you detect any movement at all of the clapper, even if it is not striking the gongs?

Quote from: KYdealsPR0 on August 06, 2022, 08:19:58 AMThank you, the one that I have is a 25 Hz.  Should it be working if I have other rotary phones that work on the same line?

Yes, I've edited my 2 replies above to clear my thoughts. Was working on my iPhone and that's not the best way to reply with complex posts.

Stub gave you a way to test your ringer out of circuit, sort of. I forgot to ask you if you had simply tested the ringer with a ring generator or a straight connection to L1 and L2. Stub's diagram will help you with that. If you ringer works out of circuit, than it's a wiring issue in the phone itself, getting the right wires on the right terminals.

No need to buy a new used ringer if your ringer works.

Quote from: poplar1 on August 06, 2022, 10:36:53 AMIf it is on 9, then there needs to be a jumper (short wire) between 9 and 8.

Also, even if the ringer is connected properly, you may notice that it is not hitting the gongs. So the gongs will have to be placed closer together by loosening the screws and turning them.
Can you detect any movement at all of the clapper, even if it is not striking the gongs?

This was the ticket.  I took the cover off and dialed the phone and noticed that the clapper was moving, but very gently.  I rotated the gongs inward (almost to the point of touching the clapper), and it has a very nice ring now.  One more piece of the puzzle solved — thanks!

The only issue remaining, which is purely cosmetic at this point, is the handset cord.  In my pictures above, the yellow and black cords connect to the receiver end of the handset, however on the new cord I received, only the green and red wires (the red having two spades) appear long enough to reach the receiver end.  The wires on the other end appear too short to reach the terminals in the body of the phone.

I also spoke with Kenneth on the phone and he was tremendously helpful.  Everyone here has been great and I appreciate the help to get this old phone up-and-running.

QuoteThe only issue remaining, which is purely cosmetic at this point, is the handset cord.  In my pictures above, the yellow and black cords connect to the receiver end of the handset, however on the new cord I received, only the green and red wires (the red having two spades) appear long enough to reach the receiver end.  The wires on the other end appear too short to reach the terminals in the body of the phone.

It's not really cosmetic because it is inside the handset and housing. If a conductor is too short, the spade lug can be cut off, a longer piece of similar wire soldered to the cut end and a new spade lug placed on the other end. Put a piece of appropriately sized shrink wrap over the soldered joint and it will be good as new, but now longer. It may not be technically correct for the phone but it can't be seen and it should work just fine.

As for the 2 spade lugs on the red wire, I would think one connects in the transmitter cup and the other in the receiver cup. In WE handset cords, a white lead from the receiver and a red lead from the transmitter cups connect to the same terminal on the WE network. In this case with a 3 conductor handset cord, the red wire would be the "one" conductor going to that network terminal instead of "two" conductors (red and white) connecting the one side of the receiver and one side of the the transmitter to that terminal. I've seen 3 conductor handset cords with one receiver lead tied in the transmitter cut to one transmitter lead.

So, it should work be others here more familiar with AE and WE handset setups can correct me if I got this wrong.

Jake ,   
       The early AE 90's (N 902) had 3 wire handset cord and the NB 902 , NC 902 , and ND 902 had 4 wire handset cords. stub

Quote from: TelePlay on August 06, 2022, 12:30:26 PMIt's not really cosmetic because it is inside the handset and housing. If a conductor is too short, the spade lug can be cut off, a longer piece of similar wire soldered to the cut end and a new spade lug placed on the other end. Put a piece of appropriately sized shrink wrap over the soldered joint and it will be good as new, but now longer. It may not be technically correct for the phone but it can't be seen and it should work just fine.

As for the 2 spade lugs on the red wire, I would think one connects in the transmitter cup and the other in the receiver cup. In WE handset cords, a white lead from the receiver and a red lead from the transmitter cups connect to the same terminal on the WE network. In this case with a 3 conductor handset cord, the red wire would be the "one" conductor going to that network terminal instead of "two" conductors (red and white) connecting the one side of the receiver and one side of the the transmitter to that terminal. I've seen 3 conductor handset cords with one receiver lead tied in the transmitter cut to one transmitter lead.

So, it should work be others here more familiar with AE and WE handset setups can correct me if I got this wrong.

Sorry, I meant cosmetic regarding my current cord which had a slice in the outer wire but the inner wires were ok (I patched with electrical tape for the time being).

I plan to reach out to Phoneco to see if I can swap out what they sent me for a 4 conductor cord.

Regarding the ringer, it will be working on a stright line by a little tuning, the hammer should be slided out maybe as much as it can and still hitting the gongs. With an ATA, many of those may be adjusted to e.g. 25 Hz,  That is the standard ringing frequency in many countries.