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Ivory Western Electric

Started by poplar1, May 21, 2014, 10:39:15 AM

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poplar1

All are brown Bakelite, all are Bell System, and all are marked either MADE BY WESTERN ELECTRIC or MANUFACTURED BY WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#31
Quote from: poplar1 on June 02, 2014, 08:27:49 PM
That one is 74 (7/54) and "MADE BY." I checked the 129 (12/39) on the 3/40 repainted 302 again--it is solid core but it has the later MADE BY logo as you observed. So far, that is the only one I've found where the "MADE BY" is on a 1939 handset.

This one handset, dated 129, does not fit any of the "Paul-F" handset types. The only candidates are Nos. 5 and 6, but Paul-F's logo reads ... Western Electric COMPANY.... 5 and 6 are distinguished by the number of screw terminals (separate/shared).

Therefore, either the brown handsets do not follow the "Paul-F" chart, or the chart is inaccurate or incomplete, or they made some solid core handsets still in 1949. For now, I've introduced a new brown type just for this handset in my working chart.

unbeldi

Quote from: unbeldi on June 04, 2014, 11:37:18 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on June 02, 2014, 08:27:49 PM
That one is 74 (7/54) and "MADE BY." I checked the 129 (12/39) on the 3/40 repainted 302 again--it is solid core but it has the later MADE BY logo as you observed. So far, that is the only one I've found where the "MADE BY" is on a 1939 handset.

This one handset, dated 129, does not fit any of the "Paul-F" handset types. The only candidates are Nos. 5 and 6, but Paul-F's logo reads ... Western Electric COMPANY.... 5 and 6 are distinguished by the number of screw terminals (separate/shared).

Therefore, either the brown handsets do not follow the "Paul-F" chart, or the chart is inaccurate or incomplete, or they made some solid core handsets still in 1949. For now, I've introduced a new brown type just for this handset in my working chart.

As a follow-up, I actually suspect that the inscription on Paul-F's chart for type 5 and 6 is wrong too, because I just found another loose black handset with a yellow-stamped date "7 15 38", which has the BELL SYSTEM MADE BY Western Electric F1" inscription. No "company".  This establishes, IMHO, the legitimacy of this brown handset as being from the same period.
Period.

unbeldi

#33
Quote from: unbeldi on June 04, 2014, 12:07:52 PM

As a follow-up, I actually suspect that the inscription on Paul-F's chart for type 5 and 6 is wrong too, because I just found another loose black handset with a yellow-stamped date "7 15 38", which has the BELL SYSTEM MADE BY Western Electric F1" inscription. No "company".  This establishes, IMHO, the legitimacy of this brown handset as being from the same period.
Period.

I am suspecting that whenever the inscription uses "MADE BY", it also uses just "Western Electric", and when it uses "MANUFACTURED BY"  is adds the work COMPANY. You brown handsets list appears to confirm that. We just have to establish that for the blacks too.

Dan/Panther

Here's a Northern Electric 302 I purchased a few years back.
The Jury is still out as to whether it is original or not. I can't imagine robbing Ivory cords from a real Ivory set to place on a painted one ?
The strain reliefs are both marked KS KK 17, H3AF.
The handset says F1, Made in Canada. Dated 2-50.
The paint is uniform, and the plungers are painted also.

D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

poplar1

H3AF is normally the code for a coiled handset cord.
WE ivory phones have 5J dials with either unpainted stainless steel finger wheels (1937-1940) or Lucite finger wheels (1941-42; 1949-1954).
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#36
And the handset is not brown it seems, or is it? looks rather dark in the back, and it has grooves.  IMHO, the phone doesn't ''look'' original with the painted dial card frame, and wheel. Ivory cords are some kind of plastic, it seems.

Dan/Panther

The cords are genuine I'm sure of that. Are Northern Electric designations the same as western Electrics ? The handset reads F1, Made in Canada. Are the F1W designations only those made by Western Electric for the after market use ? The fingerwheel is painted aluminum. The dial face is marked 150B...IV 51.
The dial is a 5H, III 39, with  56L painted on the clutch assembly the same as my Peking Red 302.  Just coincidence or ?
The cords have rubber wire, whereas the phone itself has cloth.

D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

poplar1

I don't have any color NE phones to compare. However, I'm fairly certain that both WE and NE used "H" only for handset cords. In any case, why would a mounting cord (line cord) and handset cord have the same part number (H3AF)? I would guess that some refurbisher reused these S-hook restraints on new cords.


Are all of the other parts Northern or is there a mix of WE and NE? WE (and probably NE) Ivory 302s always had 5J dials, never 5H, and never painted finger wheels. Before 1955, ivory handsets were either painted brown Bakelite (no groove) or they were thermoplastic.

Refurbishers, such as Telephone Engineering Co., on the other hand, often used non-standard cords when painting black phones another color.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

Quote from: Dan/Panther on June 04, 2014, 03:17:41 PM
The cords are genuine I'm sure of that. .........
The cords have rubber wire, whereas the phone itself has cloth.

D/P
Dan, the strain relief in this picture looks like it has been crimped on with pliers crushing the little dome that the s-hook loops through. The cord is home-made.

BDM

Good point! Many years ago a list server member (in the 90s) warned me about that on crimps. Most do not have the proper tools to properly crimp the strain reliefs. Even when carefully done, the jaw marks can usually still be seen (as on this example). Generally indicating a home-made job.

Quote from: unbeldi on June 07, 2014, 08:44:32 AM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on June 04, 2014, 03:17:41 PM
The cords are genuine I'm sure of that. .........
The cords have rubber wire, whereas the phone itself has cloth.

D/P
Dan, the strain relief in this picture looks like it has been crimped on with pliers crushing the little dome that the s-hook loops through. The cord is home-made.

--Brian--

St Clair Shores, MI

Dan/Panther

After spending a closer look at the wires, they are definitely reworks.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

unbeldi

#42
This 302FR-4, dated late 1939, just sold this minute for $52.

Seems all very nice and original. The paint tone and manner of inside spray is so much like mine was (1947), except a little cleaner in condition. But the type of wear is extremely similar. This confirms to me that mine was original paint as well.

www.ebay.com/itm/151367025923

EDIT: Sold on 8-3-14

unbeldi

#43
.

poplar1

My guess is that the original 5J dial  was replaced with a post-1944 5H, except that the original stainless steel finger wheel and card holder frame were transferred from the old dial to the new. (Finger stop is the later style.)
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.