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Is this a military WE 302? I think so...

Started by shortrackskater, May 31, 2017, 12:24:33 PM

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shortrackskater

#60
I spend considerable time last night checking the phone.
The crimp at R-S is clear of the screw. It was close but sometimes the photos are misleading and don't show the depth/distance too well.
The only thing notable was that, after checking and rechecking I had no dial tone at all now!
But after some fiddling around I noticed the contacts at the lower part of the dial were just a hair short of continuity. I noticed the metal cam and plastic lobe: the lobe wasn't lined up correctly so I removed the dial and made a very slight adjustment. Now it's back to the exact point it was the other night.
So at this point -
The wiring is correct.
As it is now, I get dial tone and side tone. The hook switch doesn't release the line. The dial does nothing. Making/breaking contact with the transmitter DOES release and reconnect the line.
And, if I remove the red wire from the handset - the clicks get LOUD and the hookswitch will work. And, dialing two random numbers will result in a busy signal.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 15, 2017, 01:05:12 PM
I spend considerable time last night checking the phone.
The crimp at R-S is clear of the screw. It was close but sometimes the photos are misleading and don't show the depth/distance too well.
Hopefully in the future you will post holograms instead of photos so this does not happen again!

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 15, 2017, 01:05:12 PM
The only thing notable was that, after checking and rechecking I had no dial tone at all now!
But after some fiddling around I noticed the contacts at the lower part of the dial were just a hair short of continuity. I noticed the metal cam and plastic lobe: the lobe wasn't lined up correctly so I removed the dial and made a very slight adjustment. Now it's back to the exact point it was the other night.
So at this point -
The wiring is correct.
As it is now, I get dial tone and side tone. The hook switch doesn't release the line. The dial does nothing. Making/breaking contact with the transmitter DOES release and reconnect the line.
And, if I remove the red wire from the handset - the clicks get LOUD and the hookswitch will work. And, dialing two random numbers will result in a busy signal.
OK, but the statements "the dial does nothing" and "dialing two random numbers will result in a busy signal" are contradictory.  Which is it?

Also, are there clicks in the receiver when operating the dial and cradle switch with the red handset lead connected?

The alignment between the off-normal cam and the first off-normal contact spring insulator should not change from ordinary handling.  That suggests that the screws holding the stack of contacts onto the dial frame are not absolutely perfectly tight as they must be for stable operation.  Otherwise the relationship could not change.  What shifted that caused the misalignment?  The contacts pivoting up and down or something else?

Also, do you have an analog voltmeter or only a digital one?

shortrackskater

I "bolded" my sentence for clarification.
The dial does nothing with red wire from handset attached.
With the red wire disconnected, dialing two numbers will result in a busy signal.
NO CLICKS with red handset lead connected.
I use a digital one now, but I'm looking for my old analog meter. I have it somewhere.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 15, 2017, 02:16:36 PM
I "bolded" my sentence for clarification.
The dial does nothing with red wire from handset attached.
With the red wire disconnected, dialing two numbers will result in a busy signal.
NO CLICKS with red handset lead connected.
I use a digital one now, but I'm looking for my old analog meter. I have it somewhere.
Thanks for the clarification. 

An analog VOM is useful for evaluating the impulse ratio of a dial, an important characteristic which determines together with speed AKA pulse rate, the recognizability of the digits.  It can also be done using Audacity on a PC or Mac through a mike or line input jack, which does not exist on some Macs but can be done with an analog/USB adapter.

shortrackskater

AGB - I like your hologram idea! I wish there was a way (there probably is, somewhere) to do exactly that - some sort of 3D imaging software, where you could see behind the wires. When I look back at my photos I can completely understand the concerns on this.
I found my analog meter. It's just an old, small, Radio Shack meter which was my fathers. I removed the back cover expecting a leaky old battery stuck inside. I found it still had the ORIGINAL Radio Shack AA battery in it from 1990. It looked like new and measured 1.5 volts, no leaking whatsoever.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 16, 2017, 12:12:29 PM
AGB - I like your hologram idea! I wish there was a way (there probably is, somewhere) to do exactly that - some sort of 3D imaging software, where you could see behind the wires. When I look back at my photos I can completely understand the concerns on this.
I found my analog meter. It's just an old, small, Radio Shack meter which was my fathers. I removed the back cover expecting a leaky old battery stuck inside. I found it still had the ORIGINAL Radio Shack AA battery in it from 1990. It looked like new and measured 1.5 volts, no leaking whatsoever.
Good!  I'm working on a reply to the previous points.  Probably will post later today.  The first priority must be to correct what are probably wiring problems before working on the dial.

Alex G. Bell

#66
Quote from: shortrackskater on June 15, 2017, 02:16:36 PM
I "bolded" my sentence for clarification.
The dial does nothing with red wire from handset attached.
With the red wire disconnected, dialing two numbers will result in a busy signal.
NO CLICKS with red handset lead connected.
I use a digital one now, but I'm looking for my old analog meter. I have it somewhere.
(Corrected per comments from Poplar1)

Even studying the schematic I'm finding it difficult to understand exactly what's causing the symptoms you described. 

You wrote:
> The dial does nothing with red wire from handset attached.
> NO CLICKS with red handset lead connected.
> With the red wire disconnected, dialing two numbers will result in a busy signal.

I have to assume that it is the RD handset cord lead you are disconnecting above and that when you do so there are clicks in the receiver for both switchhook operation and dial operation.  Is this correct?

You also wrote:
> As it is now, I get dial tone and side tone. The hook switch doesn't release the line. The dial does nothing.
> Making/breaking contact with the transmitter DOES release and reconnect the line.

Am I correct in thinking that removing the transmitter disconnects the line while the RD handset cord lead is connected or is that when the RD handset cord lead is disconnected, or in both cases?

Let's set aside for now the busy tone after dialing 2 digits, which is probably caused by a dial adjustment problem whereas all the other problems are probably due to a wiring error.  My intuition is that you might have some problem with mixed up switchhook leads, especially considering the difficulty you were having discerning the lead colors.

In Reply #25 I listed the order of the lead connections to the switchhook assembly: "From front to back the lead order is BR-BL, GN, YL and BR-YL".  Is this the way you are reading the colors?

The 1st (front) spring (BR-BL lead) should connect to the BB dial terminal.  From the photos it looks like it is.

The 2nd spring (GN lead) should connect to the C GN terminal of the IND.  In this photo the lead there appears to be black:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18256.0;attach=163226;image
If it's BK where does it go and where is the GN switchhook lead connected?

The 3rd spring (YL) should connect to the L1 L2-Y terminal of the IND.  In the same photo I cannot see what's on L1.  But there appear to be 2 leads on the small screw towards the edge of the baseplate and 2 more including the line cord on the large screw towards the viewer.  I can't account for 4 leads on L1.  Seems to me there should be 3 at most, in the case when the ringer is bridged internally, otherwise two.  What are the 4 leads?

The 4th spring (BR-YL lead) should connect to the 1st dial screw and appears to do so in the photo.

poplar1

Typo:
Hook switch leads:
Green should go to GN on induction coil rather than C
Yellow should go to L2-Y, not L1.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Alex G. Bell

#68
Quote from: poplar1 on June 17, 2017, 05:59:03 AM
Typo:
Hook switch leads:
Green should go to GN on induction coil rather than C
Yellow should go to L2-Y, not L1.
Oops!  Corrected the original so it stands alone.  Thanks for catching that!

shortrackskater

Eureka!
But there's a huge catch...
I worked on the phone yesterday evening but I didn't check back until this afternoon (work, you know).
I found an alternate wiring diagram for this particular dial. I simply followed it from a photo, plugged the phone in and it all works! It dials correctly, hookswitch releases the line. I didn't check the ringer yet.
However, I still have the loud clicks when dialing.
From the post where I found the alternative wiring, there was a schematic I didn't see which I will look at later.
I will work on the phone soon as I get home in an hour or so.
What I'll do is compare what was posted above with what I did already and come back here with the results.
But where it stands now, I'd say it must be close to correct with wiring.
Last, for now although it may not matter! But I appreciate all the help. :)
In my reply #62 I guess I should have bolded again.
Here:
The dial does nothing with red wire from handset attached.
With the red wire disconnected, dialing two numbers will result in a busy signal.
NO CLICKS with red handset lead connected.
I use a digital one now, but I'm looking for my old analog meter. I have it somewhere.

Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

#70
Quote from: shortrackskater on June 17, 2017, 07:57:38 PM
Eureka!
But there's a huge catch...
I worked on the phone yesterday evening but I didn't check back until this afternoon (work, you know).
I found an alternate wiring diagram for this particular dial. I simply followed it from a photo, plugged the phone in and it all works! It dials correctly, hookswitch releases the line. I didn't check the ringer yet.
However, I still have the loud clicks when dialing.
From the post where I found the alternative wiring, there was a schematic I didn't see which I will look at later.
I will work on the phone soon as I get home in an hour or so.
What I'll do is compare what was posted above with what I did already and come back here with the results.
But where it stands now, I'd say it must be close to correct with wiring.
Last, for now although it may not matter! But I appreciate all the help. :)
In my reply #62 I guess I should have bolded again.
Here:
The dial does nothing with red wire from handset attached.
With the red wire disconnected, dialing two numbers will result in a busy signal.
NO CLICKS with red handset lead connected.
I use a digital one now, but I'm looking for my old analog meter. I have it somewhere.

Where on line can we see the dial wiring diagram you used?

If there are clicks (with the red handset cord lead connected) there is still some residual problem.

Is there one click at the beginning and end of each digit or is there a click for each impulse of each digit?

Are there clicks when the switchhook is operated?

shortrackskater

#71
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15996.0

There are loud clicks for each impulse of each digit, respectively.
When switchhook is operated, the clicks are quieter.
There's a schematic on the above link but it's very difficult for me to read. The connections to the dial are not marked as to where they go.

Checking connections from last post.
The "green" on my hookswitch appears black. It's green though.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

#72
Quote from: shortrackskater on June 17, 2017, 08:43:18 PM
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15996.0

There are loud clicks for each impulse of each digit, respectively.
When switchhook is operated, the clicks are quieter.
There's a schematic on the above link but it's very difficult for me to read. The connections to the dial are not marked as to where they go.

Checking connections from last post.
The "green" on my hookswitch appears black. It's green though.
I see two photos but don't see a schematic there. 

The dial shown there is the standard AE dial with a 3 contact set which closes when the dial is off normal but not including the 2 contact set which opens which your dial has which appears on the terminals I designated BB and W. 

Instead of emulating what the WE dial does by shorting the transmitter and induction coil and opening the receiver circuit it shorts the transmitter and receiver but not the induction coil.  That's okay.  Telephone sets with separate subsets don't short the induction coil either.  It should work.

However to use this wiring arrangement you must ignore the last two (right most) bottom terminals which I designated BB and WH and use the terminal that's missing the screw in the photo I annotated.  Which terminals are you using? 

It ought to work without clicks in the receiver.  However if you are using the right two bottom row terminals it would not work properly.  Once again a photo showing your new dial connections would help.

If the correct terminals are in use the clicks suggest that the 3rd off normal contact which the WH handset cord lead and BR-BL switchhook lead connect to (the one missing the screw in the photo), is not making contact with the 2nd off normal contact designated R. 

Do the three contact points on the 4th, 5th and 6th springs touch when the dial is turned off normal?

If there is any doubt you need to measure the resistance across these 3 terminals (with the existing leads connected).  Resistance between any 2 of the 3 should be less than 200 ohms with the dial normal and less than 5 ohms when it's off normal.

Aside from the clicks when operating the dial, any click at all when the switchhook is operated indicates some other error in addition to the malfunction the dial itself may be producing when it's operated.

shortrackskater

The schematic is just above the first photo in the link that showed the two photos. Hard to notice... I didn't at first!

However...
EUREKA! This time for real.
I moved the wires at W on the dial, to the terminal above it and everything is working. There's no clicks, hookswitch works, it rings, dials out properly, etc.

THANK YOU!!!!  :)

Here's a final photo of the new wire location. For whatever reason, there are two wires that go to the same point in the handset. Not sure why they did that...
Anyway... it's a completely working phone now.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 18, 2017, 01:28:44 AM
The schematic is just above the first photo in the link that showed the two photos. Hard to notice... I didn't at first!

However...
EUREKA! This time for real.
I moved the wires at W on the dial, to the terminal above it and everything is working. There's no clicks, hookswitch works, it rings, dials out properly, etc.

THANK YOU!!!!  :)

Here's a final photo of the new wire location. For whatever reason, there are two wires that go to the same point in the handset. Not sure why they did that...
Anyway... it's a completely working phone now.
Ah - yes! Inconspicuous to say the least.

Congratulations and you're welcome!

There are 2 white wires because the handset cord was adapted from its intended application on a 500 set G-type handset which uses 2 separate WH leads to the receiver.  With an extra lead in this application the easiest and best thing to do with it is parallel it with another for redundancy.