KS-19304-L1 SPDT switch question.....

[Babybearjs]

OK Guys... I have a KS-19304-L1 SPDT switch with a date code of 04-89. since the bell system was disbanded is 84, were these made by ATT? if so, then is there anyone making phone equipment for ATT still (parts and accessories)? does anyone know if any of this stuff is still being made using the original part numbers? thought it was kind of strange to find such a late date code...

[HarrySmith]

Not unusual. Just yeserday I was looking at a NOS panel phone still in the box, AT&T branded that was marked in 89. 9/89 IIRC.

[Jim Stettler]

The only brand affected by the Break-up was BELL SYSTEM. After the break-up all the Baby Bells were making branded sets. They even made high tech sets branded American Bell.
You can find WE sets branded "Bell system not for sale". that were made in early 1984. Those shouldn't exist. most of the ones I have seen were 1st 1/4 1984. I did see one dated June 1984. These were all trimlines.
Jim

[Babybearjs]

so where were they getting their accessories from? when did the Hawthorn works shut down? or were these parts locally made?

[Jim Stettler]

They would contract from anyone including other Baby Bells. Western Electric was spun off as a "Baby Bell" company. The biggest difference  on the phones was the were no longer marked "Bell System property".
As time went on there were some  mergers of the Baby Bells..
Steve Colbert explains:
http://wigblog.blogspot.com/2007/01/colbert-explains-progress-since-1984.html

[Stormcrash]

Western Electric wasn't spun off, it was rebranded as AT&T Technologies, and remained owned by AT&T until the 1996 when it was spun off as Lucent.  American Bell was a subsidiary AT&T had set up around 1982 to sell phones and products directly to businesses and consumers.  This was after a court ruled AT&T could do so only with a fully separated subsidiary company, the globe logo was created as part of this. 

Later in 1983 when the antitrust suit settlement prevented AT&T from using the Bell name or logo AT&T picked the globe logo from American Bell as their new logo, and American Bell was folded into Western Electric/AT&T Technologies in 1984 as the subsidiary was no longer needed to be able to sell products.

Western Electric/AT&T continued to make many of the same telephones they had before the breakup, only now they were branded AT&T.  The consumer lines quickly started to be redesigned with cheaper electronic parts, but things like A12 KTUs kept being made as they were until they were eventually discontinued.

Meanwhile after their separation in 1984 many of the Baby Bell companies began to set up their own fully separated subsidiaries to try and sell equipment to businesses and consumers. They still needed to do this to keep the unregulated equipment business separate from the regulated local telephone business.  Brands like "Southwestern Bell Freedom Phone" and "Bell Phones by Northwestern Bell Phones" came out of these efforts, and most products were manufactured overseas with some copies of old Bell designs.

[Key2871]

Well that question turned into a great line of history of the break up of the Bell and it was nice to refresh my memories of all that. So, great question!

[RotarDad]

My understanding is that the big difference for Western Electric after the breakup was that they no longer had the monopoly position as supplier to the bell companies.  This meant other competitors entered the market to supply equipment which forced Western Electric to rapidly search for ways to cut costs.   Western Electric had a stellar reputation for quality and taking very good care of their employees, but their monopoly position obviously greatly helped them grow their business with great profit margins.  After the breakup, things got much tougher with all the competition.  It was sad to see some of the results of this, such as the the closure of the massive Indianapolis Works in 1986.   As we know the Indy Works pumped out millions of consumer telephones, many of which sit proudly in our collections.....  Here's a link to the Indy Works closure news article:

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/09/25/us/plan-to-close-phone-plant-stuns-indianapolis.html

[Key2871]

The whole idea from the government breaking up the monopoly, was to allow for other smaller companies to start in the industry. While some of that has taken place, not all the roses that were supposed to grow actually came to be.
All those long time employees lost their jobs, some lost even more. But now other companies have taken over a monopoly status, at least in my opinion. TWC, to mention one. Drives the price of internet and cable TV, but has to have e worst customer service in the world. When is the government going to step in? Never comes to mind, because I think of the Bell fiasco and all those people losing jobs.
It's a free country, or so the constitution says. But is that really still the case..
I think the intent was good, but ended up being a scar on the face of Uncle Sam.

[Stormcrash]

From what I've read the government originally wanted to force the divestiture of Western Electric as they felt its profits were being used to subsidize the rest of the companies.  Instead AT&T gave up the operating companies in exchange for keeping WE Co.  In hindsight this was a terrible idea as they gave up direct access to customers in exchange for a manufacturing and supply company that tuned out to not be very profitable without the guaranteed business of the Baby Bells. 

The vertical integration had hid how behind the times WE was, just look at how cost reduced The 80E from GTE/Automatic Electric was compared to the 2500. And since AT&T still competed in long distance companies didn't want to buy from a competitor.  That's why Lucent was spun off, to separate the telecom equipment company from a the telecom services, and why the phones got rapid electronics and cost overhauls and shipped overseas.  If AT&T had done what the government wanted int he first place, the Bell System probably would've survived, while WE would've met a fate similar to Lucent

[Key2871]

That's interesting, I thought it was the total break up that killed Western Electric as well as the Bell companies.
Well hindsight is 20/20. So I guess AT&T missed the mark, killing everything.
And I've never been a fan of AE stuff, because what I found is a lot of it didn't last, or just plain didn't work.. But I guess that's another post on that, since WE, and AE are two separate companies.

[rdelius]

Dont judge AE on some of their bad products such as 80-E sets. In some ways, the type 80 was an improvement over the type 500 set

[Stormcrash]

AT&T misjudged the market, but it's easier to see in hindsight and they weren't alone.  All the companies were betting on selling new information products, primarily to business customers, with consumer products as a halo to it.  The prevailing wisdom was that the long distance network and customer(business) equipment was the future, and the local operating companies were stagnant money pits.  That's why so many of the Baby Bells were eager to ape AT&T and set up separated customer equipment subsidiaries.

But consumer electronics products was heavily competitive and the business information market refused to materialize.  When it finally did materialize it did so via the disruptive technology of the internet.  This bypassed all of the information products the phone manufacturers were building, but in the age of dialup and dsl depended heavily on the local infrastructure of the operating companies. 

The formula flipped and suddenly the Baby Bells held all the cards while AT&T was locked out of direct customer access.  They tried to gain it back via wireless and cable acquisitions, but mistimed the market and split them back off to preserve cash flow, especially as long distance became a very competitive market while local lines remained near monopoly.  AT&T had also bet by being unencumbered they could enter the computer market, and acquired NCR to do so.  But that market was also competitive and AT&Ts attempts to force it's way in only gave genesis to the Unix wars, while IBM and then Microsoft went to take over.

The Baby Bells are alive and well today in a consolodated form, while AT&T grew ever weaker until Baby Bell SBC bought it and took the AT&T name.  One interesting thing I came across was the harm AT&T suffered from the Worldcom scandal.  AT&T behaved ethically the whole time, but had to try to cut costs to compete with what turned out to be a balance sheet full of lies from Worldcom.  Trying to compete fairly against a cheating opponent sucked cash and customers out of AT&T and left them mortally wounded even after Worldcom and other fraudulent companies had all imploded.

[poplar1]

The only brand affected by the Brea Ik-up was BELL SYSTEM. After the break-up all the Baby Bells were making branded sets. They even made high tech sets branded American Bell.
You can find WE sets branded "Bell system not for sale". that were made in early 1984. Those shouldn't exist. most of the ones I have seen were 1st 1/4 1984. I did see one dated June 1984. These were all trimlines.
Jim

The post-divestiture (>1/1/1984) phones that were branded "BellSouth Products","NW Bell", etc. were *not* manufactured by any of the BabyBells, as they were prevented from manufacturing them by the consent decree. In short, if a phone said "Bell," that meant that it was not.

[Babybearjs]

Interesting history! its funny how thing work.... now ATT is a cell service provider... still in the "Telephone" business, even if it is "Wireless"!