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Finally working on Peking Red 302.

Started by Dan/Panther, May 30, 2014, 06:24:28 PM

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unbeldi

Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 30, 2014, 08:21:20 PM
Like I mentioned earlier, I paid $900.00 and change for my Peking Red 302, Recently I've felt very robbed because of the price. One I've been watching just finished. Granted it was listed as Never used,  it went for $826.00.
So I didn't get screwed too bad.

D/P

The set was very nice, although, oddly, had the cords mounted wrong. I don't think those were original cords, at least the handset cord looked repro.  What do you think?  I think the original curly cords weren't as thick as that one.
On the other hand, a red with a little crack sold for $140 this morning. That one could be repaired to almost perfection, I think.

I am averaging about $370 or so on my pair.

poplar1

Quote from: unbeldi on May 30, 2014, 06:56:39 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 30, 2014, 06:49:35 PM
To remove the number plate, and get to the inside for cleaning do I remove the hex nut on the center shaft ?
I think I do, but I haven't worked on this this style dial for quite some time.
D/P
yes, take the nut off.  The rest should be simple.

The dial was refurbished in 1956, apparently.  Perhaps that's why it has the pin hole type of mounting and wheel.
Which year was the phone made?

Both of my 4-53 reds have them already on 12-52 5J dials.

Looking at my data, it seems the transition from latch-type to pin-hole type 5Js occurring in 12-52.  All my dials dated before 12-52 have the latch, and all in or later than 12-52 have the pin-hole.  Something else to put into Poplar1's date charts, if it's not there yet.  12-52, btw, appears to be the last month of issuing new 5Js, 6D thereafter.



The chart is already showing 12-52 as the last reported 5J dials. If indeed this is the last month that 5Js were manufactured, it seems somewhat unlikely that they would switch to the new  P-344837 finger wheel for just one month, since that would require  a different finger wheel clamp not only different from the one previously used for 5Js, but also different from the new clamp used for 6Ds and 7Cs.

On the other hand, having that clamp made the new finger wheels, furnished on new 6Ds and 7Cs,  backward compatible for old 4J and 5J dials. If the finger wheel evolution follows the pattern of the 164A Universal Plate, then it's possible that the last 5Js and the first 6Ds had completely different number plates and different finger wheels, but that later on, it was possible to use the same 164A # plate and the same P-344837 finger wheel on both 5J and 6D dials.  Just a possibility until enough all matching dates late 1952 color 302s are found.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 30, 2014, 08:21:20 PM
Like I mentioned earlier, I paid $900.00 and change for my Peking Red 302, Recently I've felt very robbed because of the price. One I've been watching just finished. Granted it was listed as Never used,  it went for $826.00.
So I didn't get screwed too bad.

D/P

For reference, here's the link to the NOS pekin red 302 that sold today for $826:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-telephone-Pekin-red-302-telephone-/261488128811
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Dan/Panther

The base it dated 4-49, and the shell is dated 2-49.
Like I mentioned earlier the dial is dated 5-52, painted over with white paint, and a refurb date of 56L, is that February 56 ?

D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

unbeldi

#19
Quote from: poplar1 on May 30, 2014, 09:53:44 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 30, 2014, 06:56:39 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 30, 2014, 06:49:35 PM
To remove the number plate, and get to the inside for cleaning do I remove the hex nut on the center shaft ?
I think I do, but I haven't worked on this this style dial for quite some time.
D/P
yes, take the nut off.  The rest should be simple.

The dial was refurbished in 1956, apparently.  Perhaps that's why it has the pin hole type of mounting and wheel.
Which year was the phone made?

Both of my 4-53 reds have them already on 12-52 5J dials.

Looking at my data, it seems the transition from latch-type to pin-hole type 5Js occurring in 12-52.  All my dials dated before 12-52 have the latch, and all in or later than 12-52 have the pin-hole.  Something else to put into Poplar1's date charts, if it's not there yet.  12-52, btw, appears to be the last month of issuing new 5Js, 6D thereafter.



The chart is already showing 12-52 as the last reported 5J dials. If indeed this is the last month that 5Js were manufactured, it seems somewhat unlikely that they would switch to the new  P-344837 finger wheel for just one month, since that would require  a different finger wheel clamp not only different from the one previously used for 5Js, but also different from the new clamp used for 6Ds and 7Cs.

On the other hand, having that clamp made the new finger wheels, furnished on new 6Ds and 7Cs,  backward compatible for old 4J and 5J dials. If the finger wheel evolution follows the pattern of the 164A Universal Plate, then it's possible that the last 5Js and the first 6Ds had completely different number plates and different finger wheels, but that later on, it was possible to use the same 164A # plate and the same P-344837 finger wheel on both 5J and 6D dials.  Just a possibility until enough all matching dates late 1952 color 302s are found.

Yes, I know the dial dates are compiled.  I was referring to the finger wheel mounting plate observations.

True, we cannot be sure that 12-52 was the cut-off for 5J dials. I have three on sets dated in 2-53 to 4-53, sets thereafter have 6D dials. The next one I have is a 9-53 in green with the triangular plate on 6D.

I should have been more specific about the pin-hole wheel mount that is triangular. There is one version for the last 5Js, and necessarily another version the first 6Ds.
My two Peking reds were made about two weeks apart in April 53 (the housing that is) and have almost identical component dates, incl. identical 12-52 5J dials.

I didn't think there are two types of pin-hole clear FWs for 302s (open center)?

poplar1

"56L" means it was lubricated in 1956. Workers at the WE repair shops were required to stamp dials which they lubricated.

Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 30, 2014, 10:27:58 PM
The base it dated 4-49, and the shell is dated 2-49.
Like I mentioned earlier the dial is dated 5-52, painted over with white paint, and a refurb date of 56L, is that February 56 ?

D/P
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

So why wouldn't they stamp this dial as a refurbished dial too, rather than just L, since the whole dial was replaced on this phone and the dial was refurbished with the newer mounting plate and wheel?  I seem to remember having seen stamps like 56R.

Quote from: poplar1 on May 30, 2014, 10:59:11 PM
"56L" means it was lubricated in 1956. Workers at the WE repair shops were required to stamp dials which they lubricated.

Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 30, 2014, 10:27:58 PM
The base it dated 4-49, and the shell is dated 2-49.
Like I mentioned earlier the dial is dated 5-52, painted over with white paint, and a refurb date of 56L, is that February 56 ?

D/P

poplar1

According to Bill, dials had to be lubricated  at certain intervals. So if a shop worker failed to stamp the L date, then it might get relubricated on a subsequent trip through the service center, even if it wasn't necessary. Therefore, workers were disciplined if they didn't stamp the dials when lubricating them.

Transmitters, on the other hand, did not always get redated. Bill said they "didn't always have time" for that.

Whether repairs or conversions warranted an R, T, or TC in addition to or instead of an L, I have no idea. This particular dial was already a 5J so it didn't need to be recoded. Touching up the white paint, adding a new number plate and new finger wheel assembly may have been considered part of the refurbishing process. Bill didn't start until 1965 so by that time they were no longer refurbishing 302s or even 5302s.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Dan/Panther

Can anyone tell me if the colored 302's had a rubber spacers behind the dial ?

D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

unbeldi

#24
Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 31, 2014, 08:30:04 PM
Can anyone tell me if the colored 302's had a rubber spacers behind the dial ?

D/P

Yes, the dial is mounted exactly the same as on black sets using a 59A dial adapter. The three holes for the screws in the plastic are too large and need to have a rubber grommet and the metal insert as well.

Here is a April 1953 housing.

Dan/Panther


The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

unbeldi

Quote from: Dan/Panther on May 31, 2014, 09:13:46 PM
Where might I find one ?
D/P

Check with Ray/Kleenax. He had a supply of NOS for sale some months ago. I don't know if he sold out.

unbeldi

#27
Until the No. 6 dial came out, the 59A was a complete circle with a cutback at top to fit around the No.5 dial governor. See picture attached.

For the No. 6 dial that adapter didn't fit anymore and they simply cut it off as shown in my red housing earlier.  However, the red housing came with a 5J dial. It seems they didn't make the fully round adapter anymore in April 1953 and used the open part even on 5J dials.  The #6 dial came out in mid-year 1952.

I have never found a reference that states why they employed this gasket. But I believe it is to dampen the transmission of mechanical sound from the dial to the housing. The light plastic housing could very well amplify the dialing noise, I think. This explains also the rubber grommets filling the rather large dial mounting holes. They wanted no direct hard contact between housing and dial, however, as the plastic shrinks the dials are so tight in the recess that it seems it would hardly matter.

LarryInMichigan

#28
Quote from: unbeldi on May 30, 2014, 08:32:41 PM
On the other hand, a red with a little crack sold for $140 this morning. That one could be repaired to almost perfection, I think.

Are you referring to this one: ebay link?  It arrived today and is sitting on my desk now.  The shell has a date stamp of "1 30 52" in it.  I may need some help closing the crack.

Larry

unbeldi

Quote from: LarryInMichigan on May 31, 2014, 11:06:14 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 30, 2014, 08:32:41 PM
On the other hand, a red with a little crack sold for $140 this morning. That one could be repaired to almost perfection, I think.

Are you referring to this one: ebay link?  It arrived today and is sitting on my desk now.  The shell has a date stamp of "1 30 52" in it.  I may need some help closing the crack.

Larry
Ah...  you got it.  Great deal, I was even tempted at $190 in the earlier auction.

Yes, I have repaired a much worse crack than this on one of my reds.  Turns out the red is such an intense color, it helps making the crack almost invisible with experience. I have learned a lot from my first red repair. Since these are quite valuable, it is easy to be too cautious when working on them. I can put together a separate thread on my repair. The housing is the one I showed already in this thread; it had a long crack in the corner from the bottom edge going all the way up next to the dial.