Western Electric Dial Value Question/Blank fingerstops/"0" only dial plates

[Desert Phone Guy]

I often come across a WE desk phone with the clicking dial (a standard collector's test for value when buying).   At any rate, sometimes when you open up the phone, you find an original 4 H dial, and sometimes you find a  number 2 dial that has been retrofitted and modified to a number 4.

Which of these "clicker dials" is deemed more collectible? 

My preference is a converted number 2 with the patent information on the front of the dial.

What are your opinions?

[poplar1]

We have found these converted dials 2A>4H on 202s and 302s where all other parts, including cords, had "matching dates." Often enough, the conversion date on the dial ( "1041TC") matched the dates on the other parts (10-41, IV 41).

I agree that the 2A>4H with outside dates (stamped on the rim) look good on a 151AL or round base (B1) 102/202.

The "true 4H" dials (not conversions) seem to be less common than the conversions. Perhaps that makes them worth more to someone restoring a D1 (oval base) 102/202. The date range for "true 4H" manufacture is 1930-1938. 1930-circa 1934 4H dials had porcelain number plates with the 3 pins like the 132-type plates found on 2A and 2H dials. Of these, the earliest ones do not have a "Z" above "OPERATOR."

The 149A, 149B,and 149E "celluloid" number plates were introduced in about 1934 and were made for only 3 or 4 years.

4J dials (for color D1s) were made for maybe only about one year (1937). These had white cases and stainless steel finger wheels. Earlier color D1s used 4H dials painted (case and finger wheel) to match the phone.

So, in short, an unconverted 4H dial with 132-style notched number plate without Z might be the most valuable.

Other variations:
As.manufactured, the dial cases were painted 1930-ca. 1934 and parkerized ca. 1935-1938.

Both the "true 4Hs" returned to the WEco Distributing  House, and the converted 2A>4Hs, were often updated with "twin contacts" (bifurcated) starting about 1941.

[Sargeguy]

I like the "true" 4Hs better on a desk phone.  I like a brand new, not repurposed, dial.  A 151-Al has already been repurposed from older phhones/parts, so I think a 2-4H conversion is appropriate for those. 50-ALs and 51-ALs should always have a #2

[poplar1]

I like the "true" 4Hs better on a desk phone.  I like a brand new, not repurposed, dial.  A 151-Al has already been repurposed from older phhones/parts, so I think a 2-4H conversion is appropriate for those. 50-ALs and 51-ALs should always have a #2

Going one step further, the original 50-ALs always had 2A dials with dates (or PAT.APPLIED FOR) on the rim, except for the earliest ones that had dials without patent dates.

51-ALs were introduced in about 1927, and many (not all) of the originals have 2A dials with plain rims and parents on the back. Although some will disagree, I haven't seen any 2A dials or 51-AL bases with manufacture dates later than 1930.

[Desert Phone Guy]

Interesting information... Thanks Poplar.   

What about the fingerstops?  I have always believed that unmarked fingerstops were earlier than the  AA  and AB stamps on the edge of the stop.  Is there any validity to that urban legend?

[poplar1]

What about the fingerstops?  I have always believed that unmarked fingerstops were earlier than the  AA  and AB stamps on the edge of the stop.  Is there any validity to that urban legend?

I believe you are correct. Perhaps the plain finger stops were associated with the dials that have "2A" stamped into the metal case, next to the governor?

However, plain finger stops were also used on the D-75978 dials. Those dials have number plates with all figures but no "operator." Kinda difficult to write "D-75978" on the finger stop, so they stamped it in vermilion on the back. These dials are not necessarily older than the 2As with marked ringer stops: Rather, the D-# is probably an indicator of low production volume.

[kleenax]

I believe you are correct. Perhaps the plain finger stops were associated with the dials that have "2A" stamped into the metal case, next to the governor?

However, plain finger stops were also used on the D-75978 dials. Those dials have number plates with all figures but no "operator." Kinda difficult to write "D-75978" on the finger stop, so they stamped it in vermilion on the back. These dials are not necessarily older than the 2As with marked ringer stops: Rather, the D-# is probably an indicator of low production volume.

I have found these "D-75978" dials with no stamp on the fingerstop in early Butt sets. In fact, that's where I have always thought that the #2's with no stamp on the fingerstop were proper, but that is just via deductive reasoning since I have found several via that path.

[Ktownphoneco]

I have one of the "D75978" dials, and made the assumption, be it right or be it wrong, that it was some sort of experimental or test dial based on the parts that I found inside.    The finger stop as poplar1 has already stated, is unmarked, and inside, there are 2 springs which seem to operate the pulse pawl arm.     If you look at the pictures, you'll notice the larger copper colored spring is "U" shaped, and is anchored using one of the small brass round head screws normally used to secure one of the three legs of the porcelain number plate support.      The number plate support leg at that position has been cut off very neatly, and at the bottom of the leg.     That "U" shaped copper colored spring applies pressure to what I would describe as the top flat portion of the pulse pawl.
The second spring is a little harder to see because of the small diameter of the spring steel wire it's made from, but it's in the shape of a reverse "question mark - ?", and one end attaches to the hole at the bottom of the pulse pawl where the coiled spring found on a normal type 2 dial would be situated.    The other end of the spring attaches to the post incorporated into the inside of the case on any type 2 dial, and to which the other end of a pulse pawl coil spring attaches.   
As you case see from the pictures, this "D75978" dial has enough scratches, chips, and finger stop discoloration to indicate it's been in use somewhere.   
My theory regarding the relationship between the pulse pawl springs and the "D75978" numbering might be totally wrong, but without any official documentation, that was the conclusion I came to, and perhaps all the chips and scratches are indicative of a dial attached to a "Butt Set".

Pictures attached.    Double click to enlarge.

Jeff Lamb

[HarrySmith]

Those are different springs for sure. Ray, do the dials you own have those springs? It would be interesting to see if any documentation can be located on these.

[poplar1]

One of my D75978 dials is on a 50-AL. It has
"WESTERN ELECTRIC   MADE IN U S A   PAT APP FOR"
on the outside rim.

The other one came on a Kellogg metal wall set.

Both have notchless # plates without "OPERATOR."

[Doug Rose]

David....just the zero and no operator. I have never seen that.  When you get a chance can you take a pic?  How about the back of the dial plate?  Any marking on it...thanks....Doug

[Ktownphoneco]

Doug .....   David's plate is probably different than mine, but here are 3 porcelain number plates I have, that don't have the word "Operator" included with the "0" .         Two are obviously the newer plates designed for the type 6 dials, but the numbers only plate is a Western notchless (obviously) which is fairly old.       Click to enlarge.

Jeff

[Doug Rose]

One of my D75978 dials is on a 50-AL. It has
"WESTERN ELECTRIC   MADE IN U S A   PAT APP FOR"
on the outside rim.

The other one came on a Kellogg metal wall set.

Both have notchless # plates without "OPERATOR."

David... to Clarify, on the notchless dial plates, did any metropolitan plates have just the zero and not have operator. I have  numbers only with and without the operator, but all metropolitan plates have operator with he zero....many thanks....Doug

[Doug Rose]

Doug .....   David's plate is probably different than mine, but here are 3 porcelain number plates I have, that don't have the word "Operator" included with the "0" .         Two are obviously the newer plates designed for the type 6 dials, but the numbers only plate is a Western notchless (obviously) which is fairly old.       Click to enlarge.

Jeff

Jeff...didn't Canadian dial plates not have operator because of the French speaking users. That is what I have heard...thx....Doug

[Ktownphoneco]

Doug  ....  No.    The dial number plates are the same in Quebec as they are in the rest of Canada.     The word "Operator" in French is "Opérateur", which is close enough for someone who is French to figure out.    I've bought dials from Quebec, but I've never seen anything other than the English version of the word.    Dialing "O" in Quebec, still puts you in touch with an operator, and even if they did decide to use the French version, there'd still be room for the extra letter, but as I mentioned, if they did I've never seen one.

Jeff