Conversion of a Northern Electric Rotary Dial Payphone

[Brewster]

New User ... first post
I have a Northern Electric rotary dial payphone that I want to convert for use to touch tone.  I would be happy to get it to accept calls and work without using coins.  Getting it to dial out would be a plus.  This is a first for me ... but I am not entirely unskilled or novice.  My struggle is understanding schematics, so I have diagrammed how my existing payphone is wired. I think I have the network components identified properly in the upper housing but not 100% sure. The payphone looks to have been manufactured in 1973 ... and I can tell that it was modified before. But what I have depicted in my drawing is what looks to be the "factory" wiring. The only exception is that there was a dead short across terminal 1, and either 'W', or terminal 2.

Thanks in advance

[G-Man]

If you are able to provide us with the model number of your payphone we could likely find a Practice that contains a wiring diagram for it.

Also, how do you plan to physically mount a T.T. dial in place of the rotary dial?

[poplar1]

Both the QSD3A and the NE233QF require a separate subset or at least a network to complete the talking circuit. Yours appears to be a QSD3A.

[Brewster]

Hello poplar1,
When you say ... "Both the QSD3A and the NE233QF require a separate subset or at least a network to complete the talking circuit. Yours appears to be a QSD3A." Are you literally saying that I have to add something to the phone to achieve my goal of receiving calls?  There is no way to wire the phone as it is ?

NOT meaning to frustrate anyone that replies ... but this is just a hobby/project for me. There is a recycle shop that my friends own that a phone like this would add to the "vibe" of their business.  But would need to at least answer/talk on the phone.

[G-Man]

With the exception of a few, most paystations did not contain all of the transmission circuitry necessary to operate properly. They utilized an external "subset that contained both a ringer and network containing that circuitry.

For your vintage of payphone a 685 subset was typically used though you could mount another network inside of the coin vault.

We are still curious as to how you intend to physically mount a t.t. dial in place of the rotary dial.

In any event it would be nice if you would provide the model number of your set so we could provide the proper diagram from the TCI Library or other sources.

[Brewster]

Hello G-Man,
I thought I replied right away to you earlier this morning ... but apparently not.

I wrote to say that the only indication of a model number I could see was imprinted on the backside of the coin door ... "Made in Canada NE-22QC".

I see various part numbers but nothing jumping out at me literally saying "model number xxx".  Any suggestion where I could look?

[mentalstampede]

Hello G-Man,
I thought I replied right away to you earlier this morning ... but apparently not.

I wrote to say that the only indication of a model number I could see was imprinted on the backside of the coin door ... "Made in Canada NE-22QC".

I see various part numbers but nothing jumping out at me literally saying "model number xxx".  Any suggestion where I could look?

NE-22QC sounds like the type of lock.  The diagrams look like it is set up as a post-pay phone.  Very much like the Northern Electric QSD3A I am working on right now.

To make it work, you need to either acquire an external subset box, or install a network inside the phone.  If you want to avoid using the subset box, the network assembly out of a 500 type desk phone should work just fine and be able to fit in the upper housing.  A mini-network is another option.

[DavePEI]

I wrote to say that the only indication of a model number I could see was imprinted on the backside of the coin door ... "Made in Canada NE-22QC".

Yes, the NE-22QC is the coin door lock. The model number of the phone itself should be stamped on the back of the phone, both on the inside and the front (about where your handset comes in. It may also be stamped on the back of the upper section. If the phone has been painted, these markings may have been painted over.

One other question. Does your coin relay look like that shown in your diagram? If so, the phone would appear to be a QSD-3A. If you have a digital camera, how about a photo of the inside of the phone as it is now?

Sorry, Brewster, I don't have a lot of time right now or else I could have helped you more. But the guys here will help you out...

Below, a photo of my QSD-3A showing relay placement.... These photos were taken before connection to the network. If your relay is mounted on the front of your coin chute, it is not a QSD-3A.

Bottom Photo: Coin Relay from an NE-233.

Dave

[Brewster]

My phone looks exactly like the phone in the photo sent by DavePEI.  So I have a high degree of confidence saying it is a QSD-3A, and my relay is right where it is in the picture. I looked again on the back of the phone, both on the inside and the front where your handset comes in ... and I simply do not see a model number.  The phone is a pinkish beige color so maybe it has been painted over as suggested.

I am unable to upload picture(s) currently ... but my phone does look like the phone in the picture from DavePEI.

Does this help?  Can this phone be rewired to connect to the T.T. network w/o the network assembly out of a 500 type desk phone ?

If I still need the the network assembly out of a 500 type desk phone ... could i get wiring diagram for that please?  My preference is to just rewire existing phone ... but if not technically feasible ... I understand.

[G-Man]

 You can wire it using a network and diagram for a 2500 telephone set. For the precise details let us know what model of touch-tone dial you are using so we know how many leads need to be connected. Again, out of curiosity how are you going to physically mount the t.t. dial?




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(Dave- feel free to change fonts as you see fit)

Note from Dave: The standard font, I think in the normal editor is Arial 12 - In case people wonder what is going on here, is I am having some difficulty reading some posts that were done in Calibri 11 so we are experimenting with different fonts....

[DavePEI]

My phone looks exactly like the phone in the photo sent by DavePEI.  So I have a high degree of confidence saying it is a QSD-3A, and my relay is right where it is in the picture. I looked again on the back of the phone, both on the inside and the front where your handset comes in ... and I simply do not see a model number.  The phone is a pinkish beige color so maybe it has been painted over as suggested.

I am unable to upload picture(s) currently ... but my phone does look like the phone in the picture from DavePEI.

Does this help?  Can this phone be rewired to connect to the T.T. network w/o the network assembly out of a 500 type desk phone ?

If I still need the the network assembly out of a 500 type desk phone ... could i get wiring diagram for that please?  My preference is to just rewire existing phone ... but if not technically feasible ... I understand.

Hi Bruce:

Don't worry about the Touch Tone dial for now. Get it straightened out with the rotary dial first. However, I am curious, why the worry about using a TT dial? Doing so will complicate the project considerably, and if you use a normal POTS phone line, the rotary dial will still work with it...

Secondly, insofar as connecting to a network, see my QSD-3A page: http://www.islandregister.com/phones/qsd3a.html Either way, TT or dial, it will require a network.

It has directions for using either a 685A or a 500 set network with the phone. I use a 685A with mine, but you can also hide a mini network or even a 500 set network inside...

Note: If you need to see any of the photos I have posted below, you can click on them twice to bring them up to their full size. View them full screen. I did that so you could see the wiring of the QSD-3A. If you increase the size of both QSD-3A photos you should be able to see where all the wires (other than network wires) go. The network wiring, you can get from my page.

Also, if you go to http://atcaonline.com/WE200payphones.html you will see Stan Schreier's way of connecting a network. The other wiring in the phone needs to be straightened out before attaching the network. This is my phone which Stan shows in the article.

NOw that we know that we are talking bout the correct model of phone, I am attaching a PDF version of the QSD-3A drawing which I scanned years ago when I was doing mine. You may have less trouble following that one.

Once you have the phone wired correctly as in the photo or in the diagram, and have provided a network, nothing else needs to be done to make it work as a home phone. If once you hook it up and it doesn't work, simply reverse the red and green wires from the line - this is the basis of how these phones worked - reversing the wire allows it to make calls.


Dave

[DavePEI]

Just a note to re-inforce what was said by others about a network/subset.

The way these phones were designed, they contained no network components internally. They had to be installed with a subset which were mounted below the phone. The subset contained both a network and a ringer. They cannot operate on their own without a subset or a network being installed within the phone.

No matter whether you use its dial, or replace it with a TT dial, you require a network  not a big problem at all - as mine and Stan''s article shows, they are very easy to install, and a network out of another scrapped phone can be hidden inside. Many will hide them down in the coin compartment. If you use a very compact network, it can be installed vertically on brackets above the relay inside the QSD-3A..

Dave

[Brewster]

I can't thank you all enough for helping me ... what a great forum !!!

I must have communicated something in error that I want to straighten out.  I never intended to use a TT dial pad.  I intended to keep the rotary dial. I always thought that I could use a normal POTS phone line and the rotary dial would work - but just wasn't sure with the advent of VOIP etc.

I have some great information and a better understanding now.  It is clear to me that I need a network and I will look over material I have received and report my progress or lack thereof :-).

Again ... can't thank you enough

[DavePEI]

I must have communicated something in error that I want to straighten out.  I never intended to use a TT dial pad.  I intended to keep the rotary dial. I always thought that I could use a normal POTS phone line and the rotary dial would work - but just wasn't sure with the advent of VOIP etc.

Well, VOIP can be a different animal. It depends on who your provider is, and what VOIP adapter you use. I am on C*Net and with the equipment I have, it supports dial - other ways of doing VOIP and adapters will require a dial to pulse adapter...

But, as I say, get the phone working on dial first. It is always best to accomplish one task first before complicating it. Had I known that you had a QSD-3A, I could have sent you the High Res photo of the QSD-3A by email, but then we hadn't identified the phone as a QSD-3A. I took those photos for Stan when he  was doing his article, so had a high-res version on file on my computer here. Stan had asked me to take a photo of the phone which I had rebuilt a year earlier.

Incidentally when you have the photos enlarged to full screen, if you need a bit more magnification, hold down your control key, and hit your numeric pad's + key - it will magnify the photo even further, and allow you to zoom in on areas you need more detail on. CTRL - will step it back down in size. Since you have trouble making sense out of  the drawings, that should be very useful, as you can see most of the phone's wring in the two photos.

When you have that portion done, then follow one of the sets of instructions for connecting a network, then connect it to a line.

Good luck!

Dave