+What exactly is a WE 412BC3?

[Jon Kolger]

I've had this phone in my collection for years.  I've always considered it to be a 410.  I recently noticed it is marked 412BC3.  What exactly does all that mean?  Thanks!

[G-Man]

Here is a brief description...

[G-Man]

Wiring Diagram...

[WEBellSystemChristian]

It looks like your chassis was for a black 302 originally. The -3 at the end of the model number signifies that.

Here is Paul F's Secretarial Set page. That model is at the top of the page!

http://www.paul-f.com/weSecretarial.html

It looks like that pne

[paul-f]

Nice set, Jon.

The H1 housing was probably originally installed on, or intended for, a 302.  How is the quality of the hole for the hole for the key?

These don't turn up often, so it's interesting to capture details on construction.  Are there any other internal dates (housing, handset, etc.) that would suggest when the parts were changed?

The 412BC4 on my site was apparently also converted from a black set.  There is no mounting code on the housing.

Do you happen to have any other 41x sets in colors? If so, are there mounting codes on the housings?  We'd expect J-series codes (J1 or J2).

[Jack Ryan]

What do the three horizontal bars mean?

They are after the model number on the base and after the mounting code on the shell near the cable entry.

Thanks
Jack

[paul-f]

What do the three horizontal bars mean?

They are after the model number on the base and after the mounting code on the shell near the cable entry.

Check out this topic, Jack.

   http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11868.msg144922#msg144922

[Jack Ryan]

Thanks Paul. So the three bars mean there is a red bar ringer inside.

Despite all the conversations about red bar ringers, it is not clear to me why they exist. Was that resolved?

Jack

[G-Man]

Jack,

Red-Stripe (not "bar") ringers have been covered on this list and even more extensively regarding the technical aspects, on the TCI list. You may want to search the archives on both.
I'm currently unable to find the relevant Bell Labs article regarding them but in the meantime here are extractions from several BSP's that give information about "B" type ringers in general:

Description
  1.03  The following figures show typical B-type ringers and  the component   parts. The B1AL ringer is similar tothe B1A except that it has longer leads and can mountedwith two screws. B2AL is similar to B1AL except that one coilhas two windings arranged for tip-party identification service.

Red Stripe Ringers
   1.04  B-type ringers having red stripe markings on both coils are   tested   and   adjusted   the   same   as regular B-type ringers. Since they are lower in impedance and increase the susceptibility to inductive noises on grounded ringing party lines, it may be necessary to replace them. Some B-type ringers have red-stripedmarkings on the coil covers. These ringershave lower impedance than the unmarked ringersand increased susceptibility to inductive noises ongrounded ringing party lines. For this reason itmay be necessary to replace them with a regularunmarked B-type ringer. B2AL Same as B1AL with an additional windingto provide 1000 ohm tip-party message rate identification

Aluminum Base Telephone Set
    1.05    B1A and B1AL ringers which have been adjusted to  operate in telephone sets having aluminum bases are  marked with the designation "A'' following the date marked  on the cover.   B1A   and   B1AL   ringers   ordinarily   carried   for  replacement purposes are adjusted to operate on steel bases  and are susceptible to bell tapping and cross ringing when  mounted on aluminum bases. In general, the next higher  tension  notch for the biasing spring will take care of the situation. If  the replacement ringer does  not give satisfactory results,  another ringer may be tried (if available) otherwise the tele-  phone set should be replaced.

1.03 150U and W and 163 type coin collectors should alwaysbe used with a 5348A, 5848A, 63.18A or 68484' subscriberset at common battery stations and with a 631Y or631YD subscriber set at local battery talking, common battery signaling stations. 183 type coin collectors include an inductioncoil and condenser of types intended for anti-sidetone serviceat common battery stations. Extension ringers and loud ringingbells used with any of these coin collectors should be of thehigh impedance type. However, "Red Stripe" ringers (B1A or B1AI- having 7/16" longitudinal red lines spaced l/2" apart on coil covers) should not be used on any community dial office lines. If the subscriber set contains one of these ringers, theringer should be replaced with a high impedance ringer not of the "Red Stripe" variety.

[Jack Ryan]

Thanks G-Man.

Yes, red stripe. Sorry about that.

I have already searched and I have found these comments that you highlighted:

• B-type ringers having red stripe markings on both coils are tested and adjusted the same as regular B-type ringers.
• Since they are lower in impedance and increase the susceptibility to inductive noises on grounded ringing party lines, it may be necessary to replace them.
• "Red Stripe" ringers should not be used on any community dial office lines. If the subscriber set contains one of these ringers, the ringer should be replaced with a high impedance ringer not of the "Red Stripe" variety.

Because of the number of comments I may have missed something important but from this it appears that Red Stripe ringers are a liability and there is no indication of their original purpose.

The description says they are "lower in impedance". Is that intended? How much lower? Some of the comments I read stated that the resistance of the coils is the same as other non red stripe ringers. Perhaps their impedance (at ringing frequency? At voice frequency?) is lower. What is the purpose of this? I also read that the red stripe cores are iron – this would lead to a different impedance characteristic but for what purpose?

I guess my questions boil down to these:

• why was the red stripe ringer designed?
• What problem or design criterion does it address?
• How exactly is it different?

Thanks again.
Jack

[Jon Kolger]

I also have a 410 in Ivory, but the case is on so tight I am hesitant to remove it. Note that it has a 2-line dial card.   I will post some more photos of the Rose 412 shortly.

[Jon Kolger]

The hole on the Rose 412 is nice and round, not jagged.  It is a little rough on the inside as might be expected.  The housing is marked H1 by the mounting cord hole with a big dot and then the three lines.  The date on front is (I think) 3-52 which is different from the base.

[paul-f]

I also have a 410 in Ivory, but the case is on so tight I am hesitant to remove it. Note that it has a 2-line dial card. 

Thanks Jon.

If there's a mounting code on the housing, you should be able to see it with the cover on - in the recess for the back mounting screw -- as with your rose 412BC above...
   http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14483.msg150590#msg150590

[Jon Kolger]

I looked the 410 over today with a flashlight and I don't see anything printed by the mounting cord hole.  Sorry...

[unbeldi]

Thanks G-Man.

Yes, red stripe. Sorry about that.

I have already searched and I have found these comments that you highlighted:

• B-type ringers having red stripe markings on both coils are tested and adjusted the same as regular B-type ringers.
• Since they are lower in impedance and increase the susceptibility to inductive noises on grounded ringing party lines, it may be necessary to replace them.
• "Red Stripe" ringers should not be used on any community dial office lines. If the subscriber set contains one of these ringers, the ringer should be replaced with a high impedance ringer not of the "Red Stripe" variety.

Because of the number of comments I may have missed something important but from this it appears that Red Stripe ringers are a liability and there is no indication of their original purpose.

The description says they are "lower in impedance". Is that intended? How much lower? Some of the comments I read stated that the resistance of the coils is the same as other non red stripe ringers. Perhaps their impedance (at ringing frequency? At voice frequency?) is lower. What is the purpose of this? I also read that the red stripe cores are iron – this would lead to a different impedance characteristic but for what purpose?

I guess my questions boil down to these:

• why was the red stripe ringer designed?
• What problem or design criterion does it address?
• How exactly is it different?

Thanks again.
Jack

The red stripe ringers appear to have been first made in the first half of 1941; I believe the earliest I have spotted was 3/41, IIRC (or perhaps 6/41.)
I believe the reason for them was simply that the materials with better magnetic permeability were needed in the war effort. To make up the shortages, WECo reverted to using lower grade cores.  A lower magnetic permeability results in a lower magnetic field and therefor lower self-inductance. Inductance expresses itself as A.C. impedance in addition to the D.C. resistance of the copper wire.  The D.C. resistance could not be changed of course, because central office equipment relied on the fixed values, for example in tip-station id detection for message rate service (304 telephone).

The lower impedance effected both, ringing and speech, but has a larger effect on speech as the frequencies are much higher.  It causes line imbalances, a symptom of which is inductive noise and cross-talk on parallel lines.

Northern Electric also made red-stripe ringers and one of their catalogs specifies that a red-stripe ringer has an inductance of only 9 henry, not the 20H of a normal B-type ringer.

So, red stripe ringers were not a desirable feature with a purpose, but a lower quality product that was apparently deemed of sufficient quality for many applications, so that they endured until the end of the 300-series line in ca. 1954.

I would think that the telephone sets on party lines had to be matched on the tip and the ring side to minimize imbalance to ground.  Therefore, WECo needed to label them visibly to avoid mismatches, hence the three-bar symbol.  On some lines, long lines especially, they probably caused too much trouble, and needed to be replaced with the standard versions.