Evening all, have a question on an AE80 I'm working. Its a Freq ringer, but I placed my .47uF 640V Cap in line and it rings beautifully.But with or without the cap, I cannot dial out. I just get dial tone throughout as I dial. Seems I had this issue before and discussed it here but I cannot find an earlier post on it. I know pictures hard to see so Handset is wired as follows: White on 4, White on 23, Black on 23, Red on 5. Dial is wired yellow on 11, Red on 4, Blue on 1 and white on 2. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim
I have an AE80 and I can dial out with it. The dial is wired like yours. The handset has different color wires than yours, but if the two white wires go to the receiver and the red and black wires go to the transmitter, then White 4, White 3, Black 3, and Red 5.
Who is providing your telephone service and what type is it? Is it connected directly to a conventional telephone line or through a modem such as used by AT&T Uverse, Verizon Fios, or Comcast cable?Do you have any other rotary telephones working on this line?Some of these services do not support rotary dialing.
Andre, mine is wired the same. Can you advise how your dial is wired, colors to terminal numbers please? Thank you.
Could I have the wrong Cap on here, just curious, 47uf 630VDC Mylar/Polyester Capacitor?
Go here and download the last ( AE 80 (NC=WA1154A Network) Wiring Diagram.pdf - posted by Terry - http://tinyurl.com/okf7zm7 stub
Quote from: debeaune on August 17, 2015, 07:46:21 PM
Andre, mine is wired the same. Can you advise how your dial is wired, colors to terminal numbers please? Thank you.
I have Yellow 11, Red 4, Blue 1, and White 2. This is how mine is wired. On the bottom of my phone there is a number that starts with NB. I'm not sure what it means. It may have something to do with the type of network I have.
Quote from: andre_janew on August 18, 2015, 01:25:02 PMOn the bottom of my phone there is a number that starts with NB. I'm not sure what it means. It may have something to do with the type of network I have.
Paul F. has a page on his site here (http://paul-f.com/AEcolors.htm#AEcodes) that will help you decipher it.
Stub, great to hear from you sir, hope all is well. Have the wiring diagram for the Type 80 WA 1154A Network. Original wiring shows to be wired for Hookswitch on Hook, do I need to convert to Hooklatch per the diagram or is this a negative?
Thank you , Tim
Reviewed wiring per schematic, I am wired exactly as the diagram for WA1154A shows except I have a .47uf 640 V Cap in line for ringer. Still can't dial out, just get dial tone throughout dial motion and after. Any thoughts?
Quote from: debeaune on August 18, 2015, 07:02:32 PM
Reviewed wiring per schematic, I am wired exactly as the diagram for WA1154A shows except I have a .47uf 640 V Cap in line for ringer. Still can't dial out, just get dial tone throughout dial motion and after. Any thoughts?
Your set appeared to be wired correctly so I will repeat myself with the following questions:
Who is providing your telephone service and what type is it?
Is it connected directly to a conventional telephone line or through a modem such as used by AT&T Uverse, Verizon Fios, or Comcast cable?
Do you have any other rotary telephones working on this line? Some of these services do not support rotary dialing.
Tim,
Review G-Mans questions and then send a photo of the back of the dial in question. stub
Quote from: debeaune on August 17, 2015, 08:07:08 PM
Could I have the wrong Cap on here, just curious, 47uf 630VDC Mylar/Polyester Capacitor?
Wait a minute! a 47Mf cap? Is that a typo?? Normal ringing caps are one hundredth of that value at 0.47 mF. If yours is a 47 mF DC cap. then that would definitely cause problems, including not being able to dial out. If it is no typo, and you indeed have a 47 mF cap, then pull that cap out of the circuit and see if that doesn't just solve your problem! :) Never mind, I read your original post. Looks like that was a typo.
So, check the pulsing contacts on the dial and make sure they are opening and closing, and make sure that the yellow and blue pulsing contact wires are not touching together. Check all the terminals on the circuit board where the wires are screwed down. Make sure no wires are crossing over to the other contacts.
Your phone has a proper network, so there is no need to decipher the model number on the bottom.
And G-man makes a good point. All too often we see people chasing this and that only to find that they are on a newer phone system that doesn't support rotary dials. If you have other rotary phones that work on your line then this one should work too!
GMan, its verizon and I do have other rotary phones that work on this line. Sorry for not answering you earlier, lost track of the messages. Thank you.
Here are pictures of the back of the dial, hope this helps, thank you. Tim
Thanks for the photos.
Do These Contacts Completely Separate When The lobs of the Cam Engage During Dialing? Slowly rotate the fingerwheel and watch them to verify they do completely separate.
If not, while listening to dial tone, push against the contact to separate them and see if dialtone stops. Then return it to normal and you should regain dialtone in the earpiece.
Yes Gman, when I turn the dial and release, those 2 arms separate and re-connect as it pulses. They make contact in their normal state. Thank you
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 09:51:15 AM
Yes Gman, when I turn the dial and release, those 2 arms separate and re-connect as it pulses. They make contact in their normal state. Thank you
Ok, while listening to dialtone in the receiver, disconnect either the yellow or blue leads
(terminals "1" or "11") from the dial. See if this removes the dialtone.
I would check to see that the blue and yellow wire go to terminals 1 and 11, respectively, and that there are no wires crossing over on the terminals on the circuit board.
Also try "dialing" with the hookswitch. See if flashing the hookswitch breaks dial tone.
Terminal "1" - Blue wire from dial
Terminal "11" - Yellow Wire from dial, yellow wire from hookswitch
Terminal "10" - Red wire from linecord, black wire from hookswitch
Terminal "8" - Green wire from linecord, White wire from hookswitch
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 12:52:37 PM
Terminal "1" - Blue wire from dial
Terminal "11" - Yellow Wire from dial, yellow wire from hookswitch
Terminal "10" - Red wire from linecord, black wire from hookswitch
Terminal "8" - Green wire from linecord, White wire from hookswitch
Further...
Terminal-
"4" -
Yellow handset wire and
Red from dial
"5" -
Red handset wire
"23" -
Black and
Green handset wires
There is either a wiring problem or both of the (twin) pulsing contacts are not totally separating even though they may appear to be. It is difficult to tell but one of the twin contacts appears to be out of adjustment.
While listening to dialtone, either gently push the pulsing contacts apart until there is a very clear air-gap between all of them, or slip a business card or other piece of paper between them. Doing so should eliminate dialtone. This will tell us if there is a problem with the dial or wiring of the set.
Also, another test to see if there is a wiring problem is to disconnect one of the wires leading to the pulsing contacts to see if dialtone is still present. If it is, then a wiring problem would be indicated. Instructions for this procedure were given earlier.
What seems to be ignored here, is that the trouble report states:
Still can't dial out, just get dial tone throughout dial motion and after.
He is getting dial tone throughout dial motion.
This indicates that not only does the set not pulse, but that the receiver shunt does not work, because if it did then he shouldn't be hearing dial tone or anything during dial motion.
Unbeldi, please download "ae80 new 6.jpg" The twin leaf set of the pulsing contacts appears to have been slightly mangled. If so, it is possible that while the upper contact can easily been seen opening, the lower contact may not. Please magnify it and see if you agree.
That is why I asked him to manually push it open or slip cardstock between them.
So, maybe the white or red dial shunt wires are connected somewhere they shouldn't be, so that the dial does not shunt the receiver, but does shunt the pulsing.
Wiring verified, all is accurate. Blue and yellow wiring is separate and does not touch anywhere nor is any other wiring crossing/touching on the network. The blue and yellow leads do touch when idle and when I dial they do clearly separate. When I separate the 2 lobes (blue and yellow) while I have dial tone the dial tone remains. Hope this helps, thoughts?
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 04:50:53 PM
Wiring verified, all is accurate. Blue and yellow wiring is separate and does not touch anywhere nor is any other wiring crossing/touching on the network. The blue and yellow leads do touch when idle and when I dial they do clearly separate. When I separate the 2 lobes (blue and yellow) while I have dial tone the dial tone remains. Hope this helps, thoughts?
Next, disconnect the red and white wires coming from the shunting-springs on the dial.
Tim,
When you put the paper between the contacts like G-Man suggested , like pic, dial tone should disappear. stub
Here's a pic of the dial contacts when number 1 is pulled to the fingerstop and held there. Hope this helps. stub
triple left click on pic to enlarge
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 05:16:46 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 04:50:53 PM
Wiring verified, all is accurate. Blue and yellow wiring is separate and does not touch anywhere nor is any other wiring crossing/touching on the network. The blue and yellow leads do touch when idle and when I dial they do clearly separate. When I separate the 2 lobes (blue and yellow) while I have dial tone the dial tone remains. Hope this helps, thoughts?
Next, disconnect the red and white wires coming from the shunting-springs on the dial.
Gman, disconnected red and white from dial, still get dial tone and same issue when I turn the wheel, dial tone throughout. Stub, my legs look the same as yours in the 1 position help. Thank you.
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 06:27:03 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 05:16:46 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 04:50:53 PM
Wiring verified, all is accurate. Blue and yellow wiring is separate and does not touch anywhere nor is any other wiring crossing/touching on the network. The blue and yellow leads do touch when idle and when I dial they do clearly separate. When I separate the 2 lobes (blue and yellow) while I have dial tone the dial tone remains. Hope this helps, thoughts?
Next, disconnect the red and white wires coming from the shunting-springs on the dial.
Gman, disconnected red and white from dial, still get dial tone and same issue when I turn the wheel, dial tone throughout. Stub, my legs look the same as yours in the 1 position help. Thank you.
If you still have the same symptoms after you inserted the paper between the two pulsing contact springs then there must be a wiring issue. Even though you previously said that it's the same with the ringer disconnected, as part of the process of elimination, please disconnect the ringer wiring from the terminal board. Otherwise I am at a loss since the dial's pulsing contacts are normally wired in series with the switchook and line cord.
I hate to repeat myself, but it's not the dial itself.
If the glove doesn't fit you must acquit.
The dial looks perfectly good and when you say the springs move appropriately, I can only believe you.
It is false that opening the pulse contacts interrupts dial tone. It only interrupts DC loop current. Dial tone should persist for at least a half second or so until the exchange detects loss of D.C. loop current and turns dial tone off. If there is a DC leak in the set elsewhere then dial tone will persist. Since it does persist, the problem is elsewhere.
Most likely, the set is still miswired. Since you can still hear dial tone during dial movement you know that the off-normal switch does not shunt the receiver either, and there can be no failure in any other component of the set to cause this.
So, back to basics, check the wiring once more.
If it is wired as shown below then there should not be anything else to interfere with this series circuit.
Hookswitch wires- Black wired to "10" and Yellow wired to "11"
Dial Pulsing wires- Yellow wired to "11" and Blue wired to "1"
Ringer wires are disconnected and no other wires are on the terminals listed above
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 06:36:07 PM
... Otherwise I am at a loss since the dial's pulsing contacts are normally wired in series with the switchook and line cord.
The pulsing springs are bridged by an RC filter which only attenuates the audio frequencies but not cut them off. So it is possible that the capacitor is shot, but even if that were the case, dial tone should not be heard during dial movement, the ON springs should silence the receiver.
Quote from: unbeldi on August 19, 2015, 07:00:38 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 06:36:07 PM
... Otherwise I am at a loss since the dial's pulsing contacts are normally wired in series with the switchook and line cord.
The pulsing springs are bridged by an RC filter which only attenuates the audio frequencies but not cut them off. So it is possible that the capacitor is shot, but even if that were the case, dial tone should not be heard during dial movement, the ON springs should silence the receiver.
Of course you are correct about the shunt action not functioning correctly, indicating something is amiss wiring wise, but even then, if he confirms that that it is wired as shown in my last post, then it should at least break dialtone when a digit is dialed.
And yes, I also noted the .33uf capacitor but it is highly unlikely that it went south on us. However, in desperation, my next recommendation was going to be that he disconnect the yellow and black hookswitch wires and connect the yellow wire from the dial directly to terminal "10" along with the red linecord wire. This would bypass the capacitor.
The only reason left would be that the service he subscribes to does not support rotary dialing, but he has assured us that he has other rotary telephones that are currently connected that are working fine.
Mine won't dial out with this cap shorted out but the tone is shunted when dial is moving.
Tim if you need another network I have several WA1154 A on hand for shipping. stub
Hopefully all other phones on the line are hung up too. (Goes without saying) :)
How about a couple of good close-up photos of all the connections on the circut board?
Unless the user is an avid AM radio listener the capacitor can be bypassed without consequence. It is used as part of an rfi filter and most likely is not very effective to squelch sparks for prevent contact pitting. So if it is proven that it is indeed shorted, then wiring the dial directly to terminal "10" will bypass it; even then any potential interference during dialing would most likely be negligible.
Quote from: debeaune on August 16, 2015, 05:59:16 PMHandset is wired as follows: White on 4, White on 23, Black on 23, Red on 5.
Sounds like the handset cord may have been replaced with a WE cord. Have you also confirmed the connections to the transmitter and receiver inside the handset?
I've been wondering that myself! Also, is the handset WE as well?
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 07:11:23 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on August 19, 2015, 07:00:38 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 06:36:07 PM
... Otherwise I am at a loss since the dial's pulsing contacts are normally wired in series with the switchook and line cord.
The pulsing springs are bridged by an RC filter which only attenuates the audio frequencies but not cut them off. So it is possible that the capacitor is shot, but even if that were the case, dial tone should not be heard during dial movement, the ON springs should silence the receiver.
Of course you are correct about the shunt action not functioning correctly, indicating something is amiss wiring wise, but even then, if he confirms that that it is wired as shown in my last post, then it should at least break dialtone when a digit is dialed.
And yes, I also noted the .33uf capacitor but it is highly unlikely that it went south on us. However, in desperation, my next recommendation was going to be that he disconnect the yellow and black hookswitch wires and connect the yellow wire from the dial directly to terminal "10" along with the red linecord wire. This would bypass the capacitor.
The only reason left would be that the service he subscribes to does not support rotary dialing, but he has assured us that he has other rotary telephones that are currently connected that are working fine.
Gman, disconnected the yellow and black form hookswitch, then connected yellow from dial to 10, same issue. I do have a service that supports rotary phones, have 3 others hooked up and working. Sorry this is a toughy, all I can figure is could it be the network?
Quote from: stub on August 19, 2015, 07:18:57 PM
Mine won't dial out with this cap shorted out but the tone is shunted when dial is moving.
Tim if you need another network I have several WA1154 A on hand for shipping. stub
Stub, I have an extra phone I can pull it out of and try, thank you though sir.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 19, 2015, 07:22:05 PM
Hopefully all other phones on the line are hung up too. (Goes without saying) :)
How about a couple of good close-up photos of all the connections on the circut board?
Hope these help, thank you.
Quote from: NorthernElectric on August 19, 2015, 07:31:29 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 16, 2015, 05:59:16 PMHandset is wired as follows: White on 4, White on 23, Black on 23, Red on 5.
Sounds like the handset cord may have been replaced with a WE cord. Have you also confirmed the connections to the transmitter and receiver inside the handset?
Cliff, rechecked, they are correct, the 2 whites on receiver and red/black on transmitter wired correctly per schematic.
Quote from: andre_janew on August 19, 2015, 08:05:13 PM
I've been wondering that myself! Also, is the handset WE as well?
AE Handset, just a WE Cord, wired per drawing.
The dial might be messed up. Parts get worn and things don't work like they are supposed to.
I cannot see very well from the photos, but terminal #4 should have a receiver wire (in this case you have a white receiver wire because you are using a WE handset cord, but that's OK) You should also have the red wire from the dial connected to #4. Perhaps it is hidden and I just don't see that in the photo. Can you confirm that the red dial wire is connected at terminal 4?
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 12:42:12 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 09:51:15 AM
Yes Gman, when I turn the dial and release, those 2 arms separate and re-connect as it pulses. They make contact in their normal state. Thank you
Ok, while listening to dialtone in the receiver, disconnect either the yellow or blue leads (terminals "1" or "11") from the dial. See if this removes the dialtone.
Debaune, I may have missed your post, but what happens when you disconnect either the yellow dial lead from 1 or the blue dial lead from 11? Do you still have dial tone?
QuoteGman, disconnected the yellow and black form hookswitch, then connected yellow
from dial to 10, same issue. I do have a service that supports rotary phones,
have 3 others hooked up and working. Sorry this is a toughy, all I can figure
is could it be the network?
With the yellow and black hookswitch leads disconnected and the yellow wire from the dial terminated directly on terminal "10" along the red linecord wire and with the ringer leads completely disconnected and without any other wires on terminal "15" the dial is directly in series with the telephone line without any other components bridging the line. Flashing the hookswitch or dialing a digit should interrupt the line and cause dialtone to cease.
Quote from: poplar1 on August 19, 2015, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 12:42:12 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 09:51:15 AM
Yes Gman, when I turn the dial and release, those 2 arms separate and re-connect as it pulses. They make contact in their normal state. Thank you
Ok, while listening to dialtone in the receiver, disconnect either the yellow or blue leads (terminals "1" or "11") from the dial. See if this removes the dialtone.
Debaune, I may have missed your post, but what happens when you disconnect either the yellow dial lead from 1 or the blue dial lead from 11? Do you still have dial tone?
Pop, yes, the red from dial is on 4, just underneath the white.
All, very interesting discovery just now, all 3 of my AE 80 phones have the same issue. They will not dial out. But its not my service because my WE's and SC's (all rotary) dial out without any problem. I am truly perplexed. Any thoughts?
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 06:00:58 PM
All, very interesting discovery just now, all 3 of my AE 80 phones have the same issue. They will not dial out. But its not my service because my WE's and SC's (all rotary) dial out without any problem. I am truly perplexed. Any thoughts?
That is interesting. Interesting indeed. How about checking to make sure every other phone in the house is unplugged from the service, so it's just the AE80 that is connected. Does it work then? Somehow this has got to be isolated. Perhaps there is actually another offender "sucking" up all the current and leaving the AE's unable to dial. Also, what about the jack you are currently using? Is it somehow new to this phone or have you had others plugged into this jack that do work? The problem could lie outside the phone itself and be part of your wiring.
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 06:00:58 PM
very interesting discovery just now, all 3 of my AE 80 phones have the same issue. They will not dial out. But its not my service because my WE's and SC's (all rotary) dial out without any problem. I am truly perplexed. Any thoughts?
Have you actually tried the WE and SC phones or are you assuming they work because they once did? I ask because one day the local phone company turned off my rotary compatibility and no rotary phone would work. About two months later, as I was trying to find touch-tone phones to replace all my rotaries, they turned it back on as mysteriously as it was turned off. It's been on ever since. Very strange.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 20, 2015, 06:10:01 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 06:00:58 PM
All, very interesting discovery just now, all 3 of my AE 80 phones have the same issue. They will not dial out. But its not my service because my WE's and SC's (all rotary) dial out without any problem. I am truly perplexed. Any thoughts?
That is interesting. Interesting indeed. How about checking to make sure every other phone in the house is unplugged from the service, so it's just the AE80 that is connected. Does it work then? Somehow this has got to be isolated. Perhaps there is actually another offender "sucking" up all the current and leaving the AE's unable to dial. Also, what about the jack you are currently using? Is it somehow new to this phone or have you had others plugged into this jack that do work? The problem could lie outside the phone itself and be part of your wiring.
Bill, unplugged all other phones, same issue with all 3 AEs. Even moved around to different jacks, same issue for only the 3 AEs. I am really miffed though now it would seem the issue may not be the phone. Just to verify, Line in is green 8 and red 10 correct?
Well, that really is weird, if you have other phones that do work. At this point, when you said you have Verizon as a service, is that Verzon's FIOS system or is it a legacy DC central office service?
Although if other phones, I.E. Western Electric phones will work and dial out, so should an AE. Did you ever try taking the ringer out of the circuit? Take one of the wires off of terminal 16 and try it then. That will disconnect the ringer from being bridged across the line.
Also, please give more information about your service provider. It may be relavant.
Very curious, especially since, as you can see from the schematic, the dial shunt springs short the entire network while dialing, through the dial-pulse contacts. On a very long POTS line this is normally desirable since it would provide optimum supervisory range; something Automatic Electric's predominately rural exchange customers desired.
Presumably, your Verizon service is also POTS and not delivered via a FiOs modem.
Perhaps your sevice is being delivered via an analogue subscriber carrier system where shorting the line is not desirable. Do you know how far you are located from your central office? Does the gray box on the outside wall of your house have the name of a manufacturer* inscribed?
Does flashing the hookswitch break dialtone?
In any event, if a modem is being used, introducing a resistance of perhaps, 600-Ohms** in series to emulate a moderate length of line may solve your problem.
* Such as Siescor, AML, Reliant, GO!DIGITAL, Charles Industries, Wescom, etc.
**Experimentation may be needed to find the optimum resistance.
Actually I would start by inserting a resistance inside of your set by leaving one side of the switchook disconnected, moving the yellow dial lead back to terminal "11" and connecting the resistor to terminals "11" and "10".
If by chance this solves your problem and assuming you are served by one, I would not call it good until you call the telephone company to replace the failing rechargeable batteries inside of the subscriber carrier terminal presumably, located on the outside of your house.
Here is a revised schematic showing my crudely drawn resistor inserted in the circuit.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 20, 2015, 06:51:56 PM
Well, that really is weird, if you have other phones that do work. At this point, when you said you have Verizon as a service, is that Verzon's FIOS system or is it a legacy DC central office service?
Although if other phones, I.E. Western Electric phones will work and dial out, so should an AE. Did you ever try taking the ringer out of the circuit? Take one of the wires off of terminal 16 and try it then. That will disconnect the ringer from being bridged across the line.
Also, please give more information about your service provider. It may be relavant.
Its Verizon Fios, but as stated , all my other rotary phones work fine and have for years. I did disconnect the ringer 100% and same result. Thanks
If dial shunting of the entire line is the root of the problem, you should have exactly the same problem with a 302. Do you have a WE 302 to try?
PS: I seem to remember that this problem came up a couple (or few) years ago. Seems that the newer electronic services don't like the shunted line.
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
Actually I would start by inserting a resistance inside of your set by leaving one side of the switchook disconnected, moving the yellow dial lead back to terminal "11" and connecting the resistor to terminals "11" and "10".
If by chance this solves your problem and assuming you are served by one, I would not call it good until you call the telephone company to replace the failing rechargeable batteries inside of the subscriber carrier terminal presumably, located on the outside of your house.
Tried resistor, only had a 700, but same effect, sorry Gman. Really a strain here, very confused on what it could be.
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 08:03:25 PM
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 20, 2015, 06:51:56 PM
Well, that really is weird, if you have other phones that do work. At this point, when you said you have Verizon as a service, is that Verzon's FIOS system or is it a legacy DC central office service?
Although if other phones, I.E. Western Electric phones will work and dial out, so should an AE. Did you ever try taking the ringer out of the circuit? Take one of the wires off of terminal 16 and try it then. That will disconnect the ringer from being bridged across the line.
Also, please give more information about your service provider. It may be relavant.
Its Verizon Fios, but as stated , all my other rotary phones work fine and have for years. I did disconnect the ringer 100% and same result. Thanks
Too bad you did not respond when first asked if you are served by FiOs. You should invest in a 3-cent resistor and see if it alleviates your problem.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 20, 2015, 08:09:13 PM
If dial shunting of the entire line is the root of the problem, you should have exactly the same problem with a 302. Do you have a WE 302 to try?
PS: I seem to remember that this problem came up a couple (or few) years ago. Seems that the newer electronic services don't like the shunted line.
Bill, I think you and Gman figured it out. My 302 is doing the same thing but it has always worked before and now it won't shunt when I dial, just a constant dialtone. Could it be a failing battery in my service box or other item?
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
Actually I would start by inserting a resistance inside of your set by leaving one side of the switchook disconnected, moving the yellow dial lead back to terminal "11" and connecting the resistor to terminals "11" and "10".
If by chance this solves your problem and assuming you are served by one, I would not call it good until you call the telephone company to replace the failing rechargeable batteries inside of the subscriber carrier terminal presumably, located on the outside of your house.
Tried resistor, only had a 700, but same effect, sorry Gman. Really a strain here, very confused on what it could be.
Have you tried flashing the hookswitch yet?
My son had Verizon FIOS, and the unit in the closet had a battery that went out and had an alarm light that was constantly flashing. He had since turned off the phone service and was only using the FIOS for DSL which was apparently unaffected by the low battery. Since the VZ box was in the closet, the little flashing LED didn't bother him. What bothered him was that VZ was not willing to replace the battery for free since he had shut off his phone service. They wanted to charge him something like $75.00. He just let it flash until he eventually moved out of the apartment.
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
Actually I would start by inserting a resistance inside of your set by leaving one side of the switchook disconnected, moving the yellow dial lead back to terminal "11" and connecting the resistor to terminals "11" and "10".
If by chance this solves your problem and assuming you are served by one, I would not call it good until you call the telephone company to replace the failing rechargeable batteries inside of the subscriber carrier terminal presumably, located on the outside of your house.
Tried resistor, only had a 700, but same effect, sorry Gman. Really a strain here, very confused on what it could be.
Are you sure you are using the correct value?
Off the top of my head, 700-Ohms is a non-standard value for a +/-5% EIA resistor though it's not improbable some were manufactured.
(When I stated 600-Ohms I meant it to be a nominal value)Here are some standard values:
- 7.5 Ώ
- --
- 560 Ώ
- 620 Ώ
- 680 Ώ
- 750 Ώ
- 820 Ώ
- --
- 75K Ώ
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 08:22:11 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
Actually I would start by inserting a resistance inside of your set by leaving one side of the switchook disconnected, moving the yellow dial lead back to terminal "11" and connecting the resistor to terminals "11" and "10".
If by chance this solves your problem and assuming you are served by one, I would not call it good until you call the telephone company to replace the failing rechargeable batteries inside of the subscriber carrier terminal presumably, located on the outside of your house.
Tried resistor, only had a 700, but same effect, sorry Gman. Really a strain here, very confused on what it could be.
Have you tried flashing the hookswitch yet?
Gman, I did try hookswitch dialing but had no luck, is that what you are referring too? Tapping the hook to dial out?
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
Actually I would start by inserting a resistance inside of your set by leaving one side of the switchook disconnected, moving the yellow dial lead back to terminal "11" and connecting the resistor to terminals "11" and "10".
If by chance this solves your problem and assuming you are served by one, I would not call it good until you call the telephone company to replace the failing rechargeable batteries inside of the subscriber carrier terminal presumably, located on the outside of your house.
Tried resistor, only had a 700, but same effect, sorry Gman. Really a strain here, very confused on what it could be.
Are you sure you are using the correct value?
Off the top of my head, 700-Ohms is a non-standard value for a +/-5% EIA resistor though it's not improbable some were manufactured.
(When I stated 600-Ohms I meant it to be a nominal value)
Here are some standard values:
- 7.5 Ώ
- --
- 560 Ώ
- 620 Ώ
- 680 Ώ
- 750 Ώ
- 820 Ώ
- --
- 75K Ώ
Gman, the one I used said 750 or 715 on it, sorry its in the shop, just know it was not the right one. Will go grab a 600 tomorrow. I want to redo your recommendation, will send a different message for clarification.
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:45:14 PM
Here is a revised schematic showing my crudely drawn resistor inserted in the circuit.
Gman, I get where you want the 600 Ohm Resistor and yellow from dial is already on 11 bt unclear what other wires you want moved/removed, could you please let me know? Thank you.
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 09:10:52 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:45:14 PM
Here is a revised schematic showing my crudely drawn resistor inserted in the circuit.
Gman, I get where you want the 600 Ohm Resistor and yellow from dial is already on 11 bt unclear what other wires you want moved/removed, could you please let me know? Thank you.
Earlier, I posted a new schematic diagram showing where to insert the resistor.
If it was 750-Ohms then a 600-Ohm
(nominal) resistor is not going to make a difference.
I just wanted to make sure you did not misread the value. Increasing the value from 700-Ohms
(nominal) should not make a difference since WECo 500/2500 sets present a much lower dc resistance than that.
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 19, 2015, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 12:42:12 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 09:51:15 AM
Yes Gman, when I turn the dial and release, those 2 arms separate and re-connect as it pulses. They make contact in their normal state. Thank you
Ok, while listening to dialtone in the receiver, disconnect either the yellow or blue leads (terminals "1" or "11") from the dial. See if this removes the dialtone.
Debaune, I may have missed your post, but what happens when you disconnect either the yellow dial lead from 1 or the blue dial lead from 11? Do you still have dial tone?
Pop, yes, the red from dial is on 4, just underneath the white.
All, very interesting discovery just now, all 3 of my AE 80 phones have the same issue. They will not dial out. But its not my service because my WE's and SC's (all rotary) dial out without any problem. I am truly perplexed. Any thoughts?
Huh? Red dial wire?
I was talking about the yellow and blue (dial pulsing wires)...just my personal preference maybe, but usually, rather than cleaning contacts, bending contacts, or even holding them open with a card or thumb, I just disconnect one or both of wires connected to the dial pulse contacts. If you still have dial tone with the leads from the dial pulse contacts (1 or both) disconnected, and the dial at rest, then cleaning contacts, bending contacts, or manually opening them is not going to
make the phone dial out. address the fact that the dial tone is still present with the dial pulsing contacts disconnected; rather, this is a network or wiring problem.
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 09:28:29 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 09:10:52 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 20, 2015, 07:45:14 PM
Here is a revised schematic showing my crudely drawn resistor inserted in the circuit.
Gman, I get where you want the 600 Ohm Resistor and yellow from dial is already on 11 bt unclear what other wires you want moved/removed, could you please let me know? Thank you.
Earlier, I posted a new schematic diagram showing where to insert the resistor.
If it was 750-Ohms then a 600-Ohm (nominal) resistor is not going to make a difference.
I just wanted to make sure you did not misread the value. Increasing the value from 700-Ohms (nominal) should not make a difference since WECo 500/2500 sets present a much lower dc resistance than that.
OK, see new drawing, thank you. so resistor between 11 and 10, yellow dial back on 11, disconnect Yellow and Black from Hook, and disconnect ringer. Correct?
I will answer your question to Gman, yes.
Also, a very common resistor would be 680 ohm, and the color would be blue, gray, brown. The last band would typically be silver or gold, meaning a 10% or 5% tolerance. Either tolerance will do.
I hate to complicate things, because this thread has had its share of back and forth. But, if you cannot find a resistor, you could still test to see if the dial shunting (shorting) was the root of the problem with yet another simple test. You could temporarily remove the white dial wire from terminal 2 and try dialing. With that wire removed, you are no longer shunting the phone. You will hear loud pops in the receiver, so doing so would only be a test to see if it would break dial tone under that circumstance.
Quote from: poplar1 on August 20, 2015, 09:38:13 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 20, 2015, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 19, 2015, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: G-Man on August 19, 2015, 12:42:12 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 19, 2015, 09:51:15 AM
Yes Gman, when I turn the dial and release, those 2 arms separate and re-connect as it pulses. They make contact in their normal state. Thank you
Ok, while listening to dialtone in the receiver, disconnect either the yellow or blue leads (terminals "1" or "11") from the dial. See if this removes the dialtone.
Debaune, I may have missed your post, but what happens when you disconnect either the yellow dial lead from 1 or the blue dial lead from 11? Do you still have dial tone?
Pop, yes, the red from dial is on 4, just underneath the white.
All, very interesting discovery just now, all 3 of my AE 80 phones have the same issue. They will not dial out. But its not my service because my WE's and SC's (all rotary) dial out without any problem. I am truly perplexed. Any thoughts?
Huh? Red dial wire? I was talking about the yellow and blue (dial pulsing wires)...just my personal preference maybe, but usually, rather than cleaning contacts, bending contacts, or even holding them open with a card or thumb, I just disconnect one or both of wires connected to the dial pulse contacts. If you still have dial tone with the leads from the dial pulse contacts (1 or both) disconnected, and the dial at rest, then cleaning contacts, bending contacts, or manually opening them is not going to make the phone dial out.
You are certainly correct that pushing the contacts open manually or inserting a card between them will not make a telephone dial out but it will eliminate whether, in this case, the lower twin contact spring has been bent out of adjustment and not fully opening. And at no time was cleaning or adjusting the contacts suggested. Removing one of the dial-pulsing leads would not help to determine if this condition existed.
There were a number of other suggestions that normally would not have been made prior to our knowing what we have since discovered through this long and arduous process.
At one point I also suggested disconnecting the shunt contacts but a reply as to whether this was done has never been received.
G-man, I actually quoted your original statement, and reiterated it, that he should remove the yellow or blue dial pulse lead. So I was in complete agreement with you. My point was that in my opinion, that's a more surefire way of making sure the circuit is broken, since the dial pulse contacts are in series with the line. If there is still dial tone with the dial pulsing contacts disconnected completely, then it's a waste of time to clean contacts, open contacts with a card or thumb, dial with the hookswitch, etc. I didn't mean to imply that you were personally suggesting all of these methods; I just meant that you and others had suggested various methods, and that my personal preference was to remove the dial pulse lead, which you had also suggested as quoted.
I also changed the wording in my statement (see edit) to maybe clarify that if the dial tone is still present with the dial pulsing leads disconnected, then no kind of adjustment of the dial will help.
Quote from: poplar1 on August 21, 2015, 08:38:12 AM
G-man, I actually quoted your original statement, and reiterated it, that he should remove the yellow or blue dial pulse lead. So I was in complete agreement with you. My point was that in my opinion, that's a more surefire way of making sure the circuit is broken, since the dial pulse contacts are in series with the line. If there is still dial tone with the dial pulsing contacts disconnected completely, then it's a waste of time to clean contacts, open contacts with a card or thumb, dial with the hookswitch, etc. I didn't mean to imply that you were personally suggesting all of these methods; I just meant that you and others had suggested various methods, and that my personal preference was to remove the dial pulse lead, which you had also suggested as quoted.
I also changed the wording in my statement (see edit) to maybe clarify that if the dial tone is still present with the dial pulsing leads disconnected, then no kind of adjustment of the dial will help.
Thanks popular1.
I think that I am at the point where I am unable to make any further useful suggestions regarding his dilemma but I know that he is in good hands with you and the rest of the team.
Quote from: poplar1 on August 21, 2015, 08:38:12 AM
G-man, I actually quoted your original statement, and reiterated it, that he should remove the yellow or blue dial pulse lead. So I was in complete agreement with you. My point was that in my opinion, that's a more surefire way of making sure the circuit is broken, since the dial pulse contacts are in series with the line. If there is still dial tone with the dial pulsing contacts disconnected completely, then it's a waste of time to clean contacts, open contacts with a card or thumb, dial with the hookswitch, etc. I didn't mean to imply that you were personally suggesting all of these methods; I just meant that you and others had suggested various methods, and that my personal preference was to remove the dial pulse lead, which you had also suggested as quoted.
I also changed the wording in my statement (see edit) to maybe clarify that if the dial tone is still present with the dial pulsing leads disconnected, then no kind of adjustment of the dial will help.
I pointed out earlier that I think its not the actual phone but instead the service. I have 3 AE 80s and all 3 now do the same thing and as I was asked to do, I also tested a 302 and it also does the same thing now. The 302 worked perfectly less than 3 months ago so I know its not the phone (s) but instead some thing in my service. My 500s all work perfectly so I am assuming its some level unique to this style of AE and the 302s. Does this point to anything regarding my service and if so, is there anything I can place in line to try to remedy it?
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 20, 2015, 08:09:13 PM
If dial shunting of the entire line is the root of the problem, you should have exactly the same problem with a 302. Do you have a WE 302 to try?
PS: I seem to remember that this problem came up a couple (or few) years ago. Seems that the newer electronic services don't like the shunted line.
Bill, please check my previous post, I did test the 302 and it is giving me the same issue as my ae80s, they will no longer dial out. The 302 worked perfectly before so I know its something different in the line now vs the sets. My 500s all work perfectly still so not sure what could be the line issue or what action I can now take to fix it so any ideas would be appreciated. Thank you
In the 302, try temporarily disconnecting the slate-red lead from R on the dial.
Doesn't the fact that debeaune stated that he CAN NOT hookswitch dial pretty much confirm a problem with the phone service? Yeah it might have very tight pulse per second requirements but after several attempts without breaking dial tone can it still be the AE phones? Maybe I missed a post.
Will any phones in the house break dial tone when hookswitch dialling? If FIOS is now not permitting dial pulse dialling first call and ask about it. Maybe they can turn it back on.
There is other equipment that you can use to turn the phones pulses into tones but check with FIOS for an easier fix first.
Terry
It's really weird because he says his 500's work fine, so you'd think he could hookswitch dial to break dial tone with any model phone.
Quote from: AE_Collector on August 21, 2015, 11:03:07 PM
Doesn't the fact that debeaune stated that he CAN NOT hookswitch dial pretty much confirm a problem with the phone service? Yeah it might have very tight pulse per second requirements but after several attempts without breaking dial tone can it still be the AE phones? Maybe I missed a post.
Will any phones in the house break dial tone when hookswitch dialling? If FIOS is now not permitting dial pulse dialling first call and ask about it. Maybe they can turn it back on.
There is other equipment that you can use to turn the phones pulses into tones but check with FIOS for an easier fix first.
Terry
Terry, I can break tone and do hook switch dialing on the AEs. Does that help describe my issue and possible solution? Thank you
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 21, 2015, 11:09:32 PM
It's really weird because he says his 500's work fine, so you'd think he could hookswitch dial to break dial tone with any model phone.
I was able to hookswitch dial on the AE and can dial out regularly on the 500s, does this help diagnose issue?
Earlier you stated you could not hookswitch dial and have I missed your responding to the several request that you disconnect the shunting contact springs on both your AE-80 and WECo 302 sets?
The reason that it was suggested you insert a resistor or remove leads for the shunt contacts is because the electronic devises they are interfaced with may not function properly when they are totally shorted. Your 500-sets do not short the line like the other two models so they appear to be functioning properly. It would appear that something has changed with your FiOs modem, whether it is a power supply or another issue.
Once more, please heed the request for temporarily removing the shunt leads on the affected sets and reporting back with the results. Also, what was the final result of your inserting a resistor between terminals "10" and "11"?
Quote from: G-Man on August 22, 2015, 11:17:59 AM
Earlier you stated you could not hookswitch dial and have I missed your responding to the several request that you disconnect the shunting contact springs on both your AE-80 and WECo 302 sets?
The reason that it was suggested you insert a resistor or remove leads for the shunt contacts is because the electronic devises they are interfaced with may not function properly when they are totally shorted. Your 500-sets do not short the line like the other two models so they appear to be functioning properly. It would appear that something has changed with your FiOs modem, whether it is a power supply or another issue.
Once more, please heed the request for temporarily removing the shunt leads on the affected sets and reporting back with the results. Also, what was the final result of your inserting a resistor between terminals "10" and "11"?
Gman, I would like to do that but honestly there are so many recommendations I do not clearly see which request IDs the 2 shunting leads to disconnect, could you please advise which I need to remove to perform this test? Thank you
Start by following popular1's recommendation of temporarily disconnecting the slate/red wire from "R" on the dial of the 302.
On the AE Type-80, temporarily disconnect the dials white wire from terminal "2" and the red wire from terminal "4".
Let us know the results on each of those sets.
Quote from: G-Man on August 22, 2015, 08:39:57 PM
Start by following popular1's recommendation of temporarily disconnecting the slate/red wire from "R" on the dial of the 302.
On the AE Type-80, temporarily disconnect the dials white wire from terminal "2" and the red wire from terminal "4".
Let us know the results on each of those sets.
The following 302 wiring diagram shows the dial's
"R" terminal.
Quote from: G-Man on August 22, 2015, 08:39:57 PM
Start by following popular1's recommendation of temporarily disconnecting the slate/red wire from "R" on the dial of the 302.
On the AE Type-80, temporarily disconnect the dials white wire from terminal "2" and the red wire from terminal "4".
Let us know the results on each of those sets.
Gman, disconnected the wires as advised, no change, still won't break dial tone when trying to dial.
OK, please verify that you disconnected the switchook leads when you inserted the resistor on your AE-80.
Are you able to try this set at a neighbor or at work where they have regular POTS telephone service?
Also, have you plugged your 500-set into the same jack as the malfunctioning AE-80 and check to see if it also works? Please don't assume that the 500-set works at that jack just because it once did in the past.
Quote from: G-Man on August 23, 2015, 07:23:34 PM
OK, please verify that you disconnected the switchook leads when you inserted the resistor on your AE-80.
Are you able to try this set at a neighbor or at work where they have regular POTS telephone service?
Also, have you plugged your 500-set into the same jack as the malfunctioning AE-80 and check to see if it also works? Please don't assume that the 500-set works at that jack just because it once did in the past.
Also, do you subscribe to more than one telephone line?
Quote from: G-Man on August 23, 2015, 07:23:34 PM
OK, please verify that you disconnected the switchook leads when you inserted the resistor on your AE-80.
Are you able to try this set at a neighbor or at work where they have regular POTS telephone service?
Also, have you plugged your 500-set into the same jack as the malfunctioning AE-80 and check to see if it also works? Please don't assume that the 500-set works at that jack just because it once did in the past.
Sorry Gman, went out of town. Put a 620 Ohm resistor between 10 and 11, same issue. Have tried the 500s on every line/jack, they work fine. Only my AEs won't dial out on any jack in the house. Will try the AEs at a neighbors house later this week.
Debeaune:
What about the 302? You said earlier that the 302 behaves the same as the AE80's. Did you try also to do the test on the 302 to remove the slate/red wire from "R" on the dial? You have not reported back on that.
The 302 and the AE80's have one thing in common that the WE 500 series phones do not. That being the fact that the 302 and AE80 shorts the line while dialing. On the 302, disconnecting the slate/red wire will keep it from shorting the line. With this wire removed, the 302 should behave just like a 500 on your FIOS system, and I am betting that it will dial out with that wire removed.
So, please report back on the results of disconnecting the slate/red wire from the "R" terminal on the 302 dial. If that allows the 302 to dial out, then we can come back to talking about the AE80s.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 30, 2015, 09:27:11 PM
Debeaune:
What about the 302? You said earlier that the 302 behaves the same as the AE80's. Did you try also to do the test on the 302 to remove the slate/red wire from "R" on the dial? You have not reported back on that.
The 302 and the AE80's have one thing in common that the WE 500 series phones do not. That being the fact that the 302 and AE80 shorts the line while dialing. On the 302, disconnecting the slate/red wire will keep it from shorting the line. With this wire removed, the 302 should behave just like a 500 on your FIOS system, and I am betting that it will dial out with that wire removed.
So, please report back on the results of disconnecting the slate/red wire from the "R" terminal on the 302 dial. If that allows the 302 to dial out, then we can come back to talking about the AE80s.
Bill, did as you asked on the 302 and it still won't dial out. I know this 302 used to dial out so I can only assume its something with Verizon. Any idea if you think that dialgizmo would work to solve this issue? Thank you. Tim
Quote from: debeaune on August 31, 2015, 07:53:32 PM
Bill, did as you asked on the 302 and it still won't dial out. I know this 302 used to dial out so I can only assume its something with Verizon. Any idea if you think that dialgizmo would work to solve this issue? Thank you. Tim
Hold the phone!
Let me get this straight. The 302 with the slate/red removed from R on the dial will not dial out, but it used to.
The AE 80 with the wires to the dial for the shunting removed will not dial out.
But, the 500 will dial out? I just don't see how a 500 would dial out and the others not. Have you tried the 500 recently? We are talking about a rotary-dial 500 and not a touch-tone 2500, correct?
A dialgizmo converts rotary pulse dialing into tones for tone dialing. So, in theory a dialgizmo would be in order, but the idea that the 500 works and other phones don't work really seems so weird. I am stumped.
What about a virus? If it is a virus, your 500 must have a natural immunity to it for some strange reason.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on August 31, 2015, 08:22:20 PM
Quote from: debeaune on August 31, 2015, 07:53:32 PM
Bill, did as you asked on the 302 and it still won't dial out. I know this 302 used to dial out so I can only assume its something with Verizon. Any idea if you think that dialgizmo would work to solve this issue? Thank you. Tim
Hold the phone!
Let me get this straight. The 302 with the slate/red removed from R on the dial will not dial out, but it used to.
The AE 80 with the wires to the dial for the shunting removed will not dial out.
But, the 500 will dial out? I just don't see how a 500 would dial out and the others not. Have you tried the 500 recently? We are talking about a rotary-dial 500 and not a touch-tone 2500, correct?
A dialgizmo converts rotary pulse dialing into tones for tone dialing. So, in theory a dialgizmo would be in order, but the idea that the 500 works and other phones don't work really seems so weird. I am stumped.
Bill, thats correct. My 302 worked 6 months ago, no problem, now it won't dial out even with the red/slate from dial removed. Yet will receive and ring, no problem. Same on the AE80s. But, on my 500s rotary dial, all work fine, np. Can even complicate it more, some of my 702Bs work but now a few of the older models won't. Truly stumped, sorry.
I guess your only hope of using the phones for outgoing calls would be to get a Dialgizmo. I have never needed one so I don't have one and have never connected one. Hopefully the instructions are straightforward enough, which I am sure they are.
Good luck. Ya can't say we didn't try. :)
I can't remember who your provider is now....Verizon FIOS? And most dial phones that used to dial out won't now but the 500 does?
At this moment I am thinking your provider has either inadvertently or on purpose tighted up the Pulse Per Second limits.
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on September 02, 2015, 12:01:58 PM
I can't remember who your provider is now....Verizon FIOS? And most dial phones that used to dial out won't now but the 500 does?
At this moment I am thinking your provider has either inadvertently or on purpose tighted up the Pulse Per Second limits.
Terry
Terry, it is Fios. About 2 months ago a technician came out here to fix a filter issue in the line that was causing signal issues on my TV side. Must have been the TV fix cost me my phone service, not sure. Do appreciate all of the support, will advise if I figure it out.
My grandmother used to dial her phone like a mad woman. Whenever she would dial a number, she would spin that dial around as fast as she could. Maybe that would help you dial out with your 302 and your AE phones!