Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Hello,

I have a 1940 Northern Electric pyramid desk phone and it won't ring. 

It has "2-H4-A-5" and "33 1/3 Cycle Ringer" stamped on the bottom of the phone.

The phone will dial out and receive calls but it wont ring.

I believe the problem must be with the 33 1/3 cycle ringer and if it is, is there anyway to make it ring?

Thanks,
Gary

I'm probably wrong, but just taking a shot in the dark. Could it be that there are too many phones plugged in on your line? I've never witnessed this at work (I install and repair phone, TV & internet services as a contractor) but I understand that REN has a role in whether or not phones ring. I guess the reason I've never seen it is because most people only have 1 or 2 cordless sets plugged into jacks these days, and maybe cordless sets have lower REN than all these old rotarys?

Thanks for your reply, but I've only got 2 phones connected in my house.

I really think it is something to do with the ringer.  A friend told me they used to have 33 1/3 cycle feed?? and now we have more??.
I'm still not sure why it doesn't work but I may put  a 302 ringer in it if it will fit.

I don't like mixing mfg parts but if it won't work, it won't work

Thanks again,
Gary   

Most phone lines use 20 cycle ringers. The 33.3~ ringer is designed to respond only to that frequency. A B1A-type ringer from a Northern or Western 302 will fit and should work since that is normally the type ringer found in NE Uniphones.

Edit: This is a North Electric phone, not a Northern Electric, so a WE/NE ringer won't fit without modifying the phone.

The problem is indeed with the frequency selective ringer; not how many phones are connected.  Frequency selective rigners are highly selective, to the point where the 33 1/3 Hz frequency is not a suggested frequency for optimal operation, but a required frequency for any operation at all.  Othrwise, in party line operations, there would have been many instances of false ringing on party lines not intended to ring.  Notice also that the specification is right down to the 1/3 of a Hz.  That's pretty specific.  The phone company used highly calibrated frequency generators to create various frequencies of ringing current.

There are usually no built-in adjutments that can normally be made, other than some have the ability to slide the clapper weight to different positions on the clapper shaft.  Others don't.  THis adjustment was used as a way to fine-tune the ringer for optimum performance and not meant to be able to change the frequency response by more than a fraction of a Hz
. 
Some folks have had luck with taking the whole thing apart and using a hack saw to cut into the reed to make it less stiff.  Any mechanical adjustments usually result in only a weak ringing when all done.  However, A 33-1/3 frequency ringer might be easier to make ring than a 66 Hz ringer, since normal ringing current these days is 20 Hz.  Note that a straight line ringer will operate at a wide variety of frequencies.  A straight line ringer would easily operate at 33 1/3 Hz, whereas a frequency selective ringer is mechanically and electrically designed to operate ONLY at its designed frequency +/- a very slim tolerance.

It is largely a matter of how much work you want to put into it, and whether any of the work will pay off.  There have been many many posts here over the years on success stories and partial success stories, and some no success stories.  I think someone did a post on a particular ringer they did get to work and posted step-by-step pictures of their progress.  However, I know of nothing that is a method that works for all ringer types, brands, frequencies and so foth.

The most concrete way to deal with it is to just simply get a straight line ringe for the subject phone.

Good Luck

Thanks a lot Bill & Poplar!!  I really appreciate all of the information. I am definitely going to put a 302 ringer in it.


Thanks again,
Gary

The precise frequency of ringer specification is not really an indication that the ringers have such a high selectivity in frequency, but is due to the way the frequencies are generated in the plant.

For example, the harmonic system used multiples of 16 2/3 Hz, in the ratio 1, 1:2, 1:3, and 1:4, so you get 16 2/3, 33 1/3, 50, and 66 2/3 Hz from the same ringing machine.  So, originally the harmonic system could only serve up to four selections on the party line, or eight when divided ringing is implemented for tip and ring parties.  Since the difference in frequency is always 16 2/3 Hz, the ringers don't have to have a specificity of more than, say, ±10%.  And this is what you will find when you actually run the experiment with a variable ringing supply.

At some point, the harmonic system had an additional frequency added at 25 Hz, which makes this a little tighter, but that is still quite a bit greater than the 10% margin.

The three ringing systems that were in use differed in the frequency multiples or increments and the frequency ratios between adjacencies, see HERE (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11938.msg126866#msg126866).

Some ringers with the low frequencies are fairly easy to detune to ~20 Hz. For example, I found it easy to readjust 33 Hz ringers in AE40s.   Taking a hack saw or inflicting other mechanical damage to a frequency ringer I find totally offensive.  I'd rather not have the phone ring, because it won't sound as it should anyways and it is easy and reversible to install a buzzer if needed.

But seriously, any serious collector ought to obtain a frequency generator to at least be able to hear what these phones originally sounded like.  It is a joy to listen to an old S-C or Kellogg phone hammer away at 54 Hz.

Finding a frequency generator is actually very easy.  There are plenty of instruments on eBay that cost less than $50 often that make any phone ring at the correct frequency.


PS:  At the higher frequencies above 40 Hz, the selectivity of some ringers may be a little tighter than the 10% that I quoted, I seem to remember that a 50 Hz ringer stopped ringing at about 54 Hz on the high side. My notes on this aren't complete.

Stromberg-Carlson actually didn't specify the fractional values at all, they only specified integral frequency values for ringer, e.g. a 16 2/3 ringer was specified as 16 Hz.

Thanks a lot for the information. I really appreciate your information.


Thanks,
Gary   

You should be able to find a straight line Northern ringer easily. Maybe one of our Canadian members has one sitting around.

I frequently have bought NE 302s off of ePay, often for $9.99... you get a ringer, and other spare parts, maybe cheaper than just a ringer, and can keep your phone all NE.

Hope this helps some, and good luck. We wants pictures!!! ;)

Best regards!

Requested pictures attached.  The phone came with an A.E. dial in it

Thanks,
Gary

That's a North Electric (Galion, Ohio) phone, not a Northern Electric.

Poplar,

Yes, you are correct.   I have a Northern Electric No.1 Burled Walnut that I will be listing on eBay next week and for some reason I thought the one pictured was also a Northern Electric. Thanks for the clarification.

Thanks,
Gary

Many of this model phone have AE dials. I think they could be ordered with AE, North, or WE dials.  Or, the dial could have been added either by an independent phone company or a refurbisher.

Thanks Poplar.  I appreciate the information.

Gary....adjust the gongs and move them very close to the clapper, but leave enough room so it moves. You should see it moving when you ring the phone. I can usually get a Galion to ring, even with a frequency ringer. Its not loud, but give a charming tinkle....good luck....Doug

Thanks Doug.

I adjusted the gongs closed and then gradually spread them apart and the clapper never moved. I put my multimeter on the two ringer connections and the ringer is getting a strong current.

I am probably going to keep this phone, so for the lack of a straight-line Canadian ringer, I am thinking about adapting a 302 ringer in it. The biggest problem I see to fit the ringer and to keep it level is the gong adjustment slide brackets would have to be removed and they are riveted to the chassis. I hate to remove the rivets and adjustment brackets in case I should ever get a straight-line Canadian ringer.

I guess I could compensate for the height of the slide adjustment rivets by adding spacers under the side of the ringer frame (next to the coil) so I could mount it level. Disregard level issue....the ringer assy is not that far out of level and I don't think it would matter if it wasn't level anyway. 

The saga continues...

Thanks again Doug,
Gary 

Gary....I always jump from the 1 pos on the strip to L2....Doug

Hello Doug,

I jumped the #1 position on the strip to L2 and it killed the current to the ringer. I didn't have the gongs installed before or after the jumper wire was installed so I didn't figure it made any difference.   

Would loosening the nuts and adjusting the two screws in or out have any affect on the operation of the ringer.

Thanks,
Gary

Gary....then try L1.....clapper should move if gongs are on or not....Doug

Current returned to ringer terminals when jumper was connected to #1 position on strip and L1 but still no movement of clapper.


Thanks,
Gary

Even though it is marked 33 1/3 on the base, I believe that the ringer has been replaced with one with a higher frequency, making it less likely you'll get much movement even when wired correctly.

It appears to me that the picture Doug has posted is that of a straight line ringer, where the one that Gary has is definitely a frequency selective ringer.

Bill...it is a straightline ringer, I was just showing Gary how I jump the ringer from pos 1 to L2. Only stock photo I had...Doug

Thanks, Doug.

Thanks,

I may just leave the gong adjustment levers in place, drill and tap a couple of holes in a 302 ringer mount to match the existing ringer mount holes in the chassis and replace the existing 33 1/3 ringer.

Thanks,
Gary

A friend of mine called tonight and said he hated to see me drill holes in the phone base and he said he has an straight-line AE ringer and  asked if it would fit/replace the 33 1/3 ringer in my North Electric.  Without having it in front of me I can't tell.  Does anyone know if it would work?

Thanks,
Gary