Please help identify this metal phone

[rdelius]

Look at the data plate in the back for numbers in the contract to find a date .These are post war .Unless they were rebuilt, the MFP indicates the date. That photo 1948 set

[Nick in Manitou]

The data plate does not have a contract number indicated.  I will assume a 1948 date unless I hear to the contrary.

Any idea of what the "42" indicates in the other stamp on the bottom?   The stamp has an "S" in the upper left, a "C" in the upper right, a large A centered in the space and "42" under the legs of the "A".  I am assuming that the S,C and A indicate Army Signal Corps.

[rdelius]

Handset has a philidelphia 19(51) contract.Most likely the 42 on the SC acceptance stamp is the inspector.There was another  military set TA 166? painted red with a red plastic handset.Hard to find.

[Nick in Manitou]

I think I may have confused things by jumping in with questions about my own TP-6A when the thread was started by MagicMo asking about her TP-6A.

But with Rdelius's comment about the 1951 date on Mo's handset, I was prompted to look at mine and saw that it had a 1948 contract number which goes along with the 1948 date of the MFP.

Also, Rdelius, thanks for the comment about the inspector's stamp, that makes sense.

Nick

[G-Man]

When were the Connecticut Telephone TP-6As manufactured?

The one I have has a TA-45/GT dial that is stamped 10-43 and a 425B network stamped 10-55.

A stamp on the bottom shows that it was MFP'ed in Dec 48, but the other stamp on the bottom includes "42".  

What was the date range of these?  I had assumed that the MFP treatment would have been done at the time of manufacture, and that the "42" in the other stamp on the bottom was a military unit identifier, but now I realize that I am guessing.

Any input?

Thanks

An interesting combination, a 1943 Connecticut TP-6A (manual) with a 425B network.  We know that the 425B is not original since it had not yet been invented. Does it appear to have been professionally installed?

[G-Man]

Depending on the date, the very few Connecticut TP-6A sets that were equipped with dials  only had numeric number plates during WWII since the military did not use exchange names like the civilian telephone companies since they were used basically on standalone dial pbx's, however this may have changed after the War.

I have based this assertion on applicable Signal Corps technical manuals as well as personal observations not only by myself, but also by knowledgeable telephone and military comm collectors.

However, I have learned long ago to never say never! While there may have been shortages during WWII that were quickly filled with off-the-shelf civilian inventory, I suspect this was rarely if ever resorted to.  As far as the AE40 cited earlier, most stateside military post used civilian instruments  and equipment since they were generally used in normal settings that did not require the more expensive ruggedized Signal Corps equipment.

Regarding the photos of eBay TP-6 telephones, the only way of knowing whether they dials are original would be to open them up and see if they have the TA-45(*)/GT designation on the back of them.

We already know that there was at least some minor modifications to some of them by observing the vinyl handset cord on one of them and the number cards with area codes which came along much latter than when these sets were manufactured.

In fact, the Telecom Heritage Journal published an antidote regarding the invasion of Italy during WWII regarding the Signal Corps connecting military dial instruments to the local civilian telephone network. The Army's instruments were only available with numeric number plates but the local telephone directory used alpha exchange prefixes. In order to use the system the Signal Corps was forced to quickly publish a shadow directory with all numeric listings.

Because they are lengthy, in the next post I will provide further additional quotes from the technical manual and other collector groups......

[G-Man]

Because they are lengthy, in the next post I will provide further additional quotes from the technical manual and other collector groups......

Military Comms Group-
"Also, the TP-6A, by Conn. Tel. & Elect. Corp, eventually was given the TA-241/U designation.
The dials in the above sets must be TA-45/GT, TA-45B/GT or TA-45C/GT, which were (as far as I know) only manufactured by Auto. Elect., Telephonics, or NANASI CO. INC. This means that the TP-6 designation was only given to those sets with the TA-45(*)/GT dials; no WE, North, SC dials permitted! Also note that the TA-45(*)/GT dials by Auto. Elect are just marked Auto. Elect. with the five and two sets of contact screws with connecting strap."

Signal Corps Technical Manual including TP-6A -
8. Dial TA-45(*)/GT
(figs. 29 through 32)
Dial TA45(*)/GT represents TA45/GT and TA45B/GT. Dial TA-45(*)/GT is the only standard dial approved by the Signal Corps on substation equipment except the [7-type] dial used with the [500-set] TA-236/FT. It consists essentially of a shaft which carries a movable dial wheel, a spring-driven restoring gear, a governor driving gear to regulate dial-speed pulsing, and a device which opens and closes two sets of contacts called the impulse contact assembly and the off-normal contact assembly.

In the TA-45/GT, this device consists of a pulse cam and a shunt cam; in the TA45B/GT, this device consists of an impulse wheel and a shunt cam. Mounting holes are drilled in the dial assembly to permit the mounting of the dial in any telephone that is equipped to accept a dial. No dial adapter is required for any of the telephone sets described in this manual except North Elec. Mfg telephone sets. Figure 29 shows the front view of the TA-45(*)/GT. Figure 30 shows the rear view of the TA-45(*)/GT manufactured by the Automatic Electric Company; figure 31 shows the rear view of the TA-45/GT manufactured by the
Telephonic Corporation; figure 32 shows the rear view of the TA-45B/GT.

Excerpts From Listserve Archives-

TP-6 & TP-6-A phones

In February there was a discussion of the dials found in these sets and
I quoted documentation showing that one had to be careful when
evaluating these sets to distinguish non-Signal Corps "upgrades" of
manual versions of the class "TP-6" phones by the use of unapproved
dials.

At the beginning of WWII the Signal Corps had insufficient common
battery telephones of military approved design to meet demands. Many
commercial models were approved for use and designated "TP-6". For dial
service these commercial models were only approved if equipped with
certain approved dials as explained in my below reposting. After a time
a specific Signal Corps model the TP-6-A was developed. On the other
hand, for field use the Signal Corps had already developed a series of
magneto/local battery units to the stage of the EE-8 model, which during
the war was contracted to most of the telephone manufacturers for
construction.

A number of imprecisions has surrounded the discussion of coiled cords
vis-a-vis the military TP-6 and TP-6-A designations for Desk-Type
Telephone Sets. As of 1954 the following was true:

1) Dial TA-45(*)/GT was the ONLY standard dial approved by the Signal
Corps on substation equipment except the dial used with the TA-236/FT
(the military version of the 500 set). The TA-45(*)/GT dial was
originally manufactured by Automatic Electric and was the same as their
commercial dial although it was later contracted to other manufacturers
such as Telephonics. There is a device which opens and closes two sets
of contacts called the Impulse Contact Assembly and the Off-Normal
Contact Assembly. In the TA-45/GT, this device consists of a pulse cam
and a shunt cam; in the TA-45B/GT, this device consists of an impulse
wheel and a shunt cam. In other words, a TP-6 or TP-6-A NEVER had a
Western Electric, Kellogg, Stromberg-Carlson or North Electric dial.

2) Originally the designation TP-6 referred to seven models of MANUAL
cradle-type telephone sets made by Western Electric Co (302AW-3).,
Automatic Electric Co. (No. 40), Kellogg Switchboard & Supply Co. (No.
925BAX), Stromberg-Carlson Co. (No. 1222BW & No. 1242WA), and North
Elect. Mfg. Co. (No. 3H6SL and No. H600SL) that could be converted to
dial operation by installing dial TA-45(*)?GT. Note that three models
actually had official nomenclature:

TA-101/FTC = AE 40
TA-102/FTC = KS&S 925BAX
TA-113/FTC = SC 1222BW

Many of these manual models made their way into civilian hands who not
realizing the inappropriateness of their efforts turned them into dial
versions by installing dials similar to those used in the commercial
versions. These are not Signal Corps versions!

In addition there were telephone sets similar in operation to the TP-6
sets, viz.

TA-107/FTC which looked similar to the North set, and
St. Carl. No. 1212ABZ.

Also there was the outdoor, wall-type TA-105/FTC and the combination
wall- and desk-type TA-166/U.

The TP-6-A is not a moisture-proofed and fungus-proofed version of any of
the sets that comprise the TP-6; however, its parts are interchangeable
with the WE 302AW-3!

All the photos in the 1954 documentation show ALL the models with
straight cords. Nevertheless, even though the 1954 docs supersede those
of 1952, there is no guarantee the government wasn't using photos from
the thirties!

[Nick in Manitou]

G-Man,

Thanks for all the information about the TP-6 phones!

In response to your question about whether the 10-55 dated 425B network in my Conn. Telephone TP-6A looks to be a professional installation, I don't know if I can tell.  One thing that caught my attention was that at least one of the holes drilled into the base to mount the network was not deburred.

I have attached photos of the installation (I disconnected the line cord to make the wiring less cluttered.)

On the base end of the handset cord I see a 5 on one side of the crimped metal clamp and an 8 on the other...would that be a date of 1958?

The back of the number plate shows MFP-MAY 48.  (The back also is very shiny although flaked layers of paint are visible.  Would this indicate that the MFP operation was done after some layers of paint had already flaked off?  Does the MFP treatment leave visible evidence?)

Thanks

[G-Man]

It's interesting that your TP-6A would have been retrofitted with a 425B network since the 101A induction coil would have been acceptable on all but the longest lines.

The 1948 (post-war with the latter alpha-numeric) number plate shows it was manufactured several years prior to when the 425B was introduced.

The date on the network would seem to indicate this set was retrofitted in 1955 which would be strange for the military to upgrade an older set with F-type handset components when they were already using 500-sets by that date.  Since nineteen of my early 500-sets (1950-51) are equipped with the early lamp-equalizers which were obtained from an Army post, so we know the military was using them prior to 1955.

It is not possible to tell from the photos whether the refurb was done by a factory shop or by someone else.

I am curious though as to why there is a capacitor dangling from the network terminals. Presumably it is used for the ringer but since the network contains an internal capacitor for the ringer, it would seem to indicate it is faulty.

Also, I would expect a factory shop to drill clean holes and to use shorter mounting screws, and the wires to have been dressed neater, but these details are far from conclusive.

I guess the most important part is that you have a TP-6A that can be used as an everyday telephone if you so choose.

[Nick in Manitou]

Thanks, G-Man.

Nick