Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Collector's Corner => Topic started by: N7LTH on January 11, 2016, 08:25:07 PM

Title: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: N7LTH on January 11, 2016, 08:25:07 PM
Howdy-

I just picked this phone up on eBay; almost let it slip by but I checked again and no one had yet snagged it. It caught my attention because of the 11-hole dial. I still haven't figured out why an AE-style dial would have 11 holes but researching indicates that it may have had something to do with long distance as the dial card alludes to. Around the front of the case it has a few patent dates ranging from 1915 to 1920.

I just could NOT pass it up. Other than an extremely slow dial return it seems reasonably OK (probably a good clean/lube will do the trick).

This phone would have been a blast to have in a bar back in the rotary-dial days.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: NorthernElectric on January 11, 2016, 08:42:28 PM
I think you might have a 'Franken-dial'.  I think that the fingerwheel and number plate don't match.  So the question is, does the fingerwheel go with that dial and can you actually dial 11 digits?

Here is a dial I saw on eBay (here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/311325444049)).  The seller has identified as a 'Type 51'.  I don't know what the purpose of the 'A' is, but I'm sure somebody on the forum will.

Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: HarrySmith on January 11, 2016, 08:43:58 PM
Nice find! Pretty unusual. I seem to remember a discussion on a phone like this but I cannot recall if it was here or on the lists. Can you post a link to the auction? Or just the item number would do.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Babybearjs on January 11, 2016, 08:48:29 PM
this is a dial from a field radio from back in the 50's. it was used in the military and these are quite rare, but are around.... I have one in chrome. the 11th digit (A) resets the dialtone.... I had mine hooked up for awhile and then pulled it. basically, these are museum pieces now. not really useful with todays technology....
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: paul-f on January 11, 2016, 08:49:27 PM
Check out the photos in this topic:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.0)

They are definitely visually interesting and mine routinely draw comments from non-collector visitors.

The fingerstop held on with a Phillips head screw indicates the dial is much later than the rest of the phone.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: G-Man on January 11, 2016, 08:50:03 PM
 Not sure how the number card alludes to long-distance, but knowledgeable collectors are well aware that Automatic Electric had a very large military and industrial business which, amongst other things, manufactured these dials for remotely controlling military radios, sports scoreboards, factory equipment, etc.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: G-Man on January 11, 2016, 08:53:43 PM
Quote from: G-Man on January 11, 2016, 08:50:03 PM
Not sure how the number card alludes to long-distance, but knowledgeable collectors are well aware that Automatic Electric had a very large military and industrial business which, amongst other things, manufactured these dials for remotely controlling military radios, sports scoreboards, factory equipment, etc.

Further- I seem to recall that someone posted diagrams on the TCI list that showed some of these were also used with U.S.N. shipboard radios manufactured by the Collins Radio Company.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: N7LTH on January 11, 2016, 08:54:04 PM
From what I can tell, the fingerwheel does in fact go with the dial. As far as actually transmitting 11 digits, I'll need to open the phone up and verify it... the return is just too slow to discern any clicks. She needs a good cleaning anyway.

I agree about the Phillips head screw, but it does have some blackish-looking paint around its perimeter... I still think it's a replacement also. The rest of the dial may be original but at this point I just ain't sure.

Here's a link to the phone:

Antique Bell System Rotary Dial Black Phone (http://www.ebay.com/itm/321969042464)

In any case, it IS unusual.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: G-Man on January 11, 2016, 10:03:19 PM
 I seem to recall that these dials were not used with the vintage of set shown in the auction, rather, they were either panel-mounted on the radio or on a WECo 302 deskset. 
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2016, 10:49:14 PM
The 11th hole on the 1905 Strowger 11 Digit Dial is associated with Long Distance but these 3" AE dials are associated with controlling various types of equipment. They usually have the A on the extra hole but maybe thus is a normal AE dial with just the 11 hole FW on it. I sort of thought that most of the AE 3" 11 hole dials had Normally Open contacts rendering them useless as a telephone dial. But I dont have one and am really only going by what I thought I had heard about them.

Terry
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: G-Man on January 11, 2016, 11:24:56 PM
Quote from: N7LTH on January 11, 2016, 08:25:07 PM
Howdy-

I just picked this phone up on eBay; almost let it slip by but I checked again and no one had yet snagged it. It caught my attention because of the 11-hole dial. I still haven't figured out why an AE-style dial would have 11 holes but researching indicates that it may have had something to do with long distance as the dial card alludes to. Around the front of the case it has a few patent dates ranging from 1915 to 1920.

I just could NOT pass it up. Other than an extremely slow dial return it seems reasonably OK (probably a good clean/lube will do the trick).

This phone would have been a blast to have in a bar back in the rotary-dial days.

The telephone in the auction is not a former "Bell System" instrument despite having the phony Bell Long Distance Logo on the number card.
It's much more likely that the dial was manufactured for a remote-control application and it was kludged together with the wrong number-plate or fingerwheel and finger-stop.

It will be interesting to see the photos once you take it apart to clean and lube it.


Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: TelePlay on January 12, 2016, 06:50:20 AM
This Tele-Chec image from another forum topic (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.msg143452#msg143452)

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13707.0;attach=116877;image)

is straight on so the finger stop mount can not be seen. This topic's phone has an external mounted finger stop on the dial, not a #2 type, but another. Anybody recognize this stop mount? It's rarity?
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: N7LTH on January 12, 2016, 07:21:53 AM
Quote from: G-Man on January 11, 2016, 11:24:56 PM

The telephone in the auction is not a former "Bell System" instrument despite having the phony Bell Long Distance Logo on the number card.
It's much more likely that the dial was manufactured for a remote-control application and it was kludged together with the wrong number-plate or fingerwheel and finger-stop.

It will be interesting to see the photos once you take it apart to clean and lube it.

I'm thinking along those same lines at this time; it might be a "one-off" or perhaps with a very small number of siblings for some remote-control purpose.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: G-Man on January 12, 2016, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: TelePlay on January 12, 2016, 06:50:20 AM
This Tele-Chec image from another forum topic (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.msg143452#msg143452)

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13707.0;attach=116877;image)

is straight on so the finger stop mount can not be seen. This topic's phone has an external mounted finger stop on the dial, not a #2 type, but another. Anybody recognize this stop mount? It's rarity?

To further muddy the waters, the "Tele-Chec" photo is a Western Electric F-type handset and remote mobile radio control head, that someone kludged an Automatic Electric H-70227 dial with a Tele-Chec number card that does not belong on it.

As has been previously discussed on the various collectors' list, Tele-Chec was a system used in theaters.

This dial (H-70227) was manufactured for use on a U.S.N. transmitter manufactured by Collins Radio. The "A" stands for [Collins] AUTOTUNE.

Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: TelePlay on January 12, 2016, 08:35:17 AM
Quote from: G-Man on January 12, 2016, 08:14:04 AM
To further muddy the waters, the "Tele-Chec" photo is a Western Electric F-type handset and remote mobile radio control head, that someone kludged an Automatic Electric H-70227 dial with a Tele-Chec number card that does not belong on it.

As has been previously discussed on the various collectors' list, Tele-Chec was a system used in theaters.

Yes, the Tele-Chec dial has the finger stop about half way between the "1" and "0" unlike the WE and AE dials which have it near the "0".

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15278.0;attach=133027;image)

This image is from the Tele-Chec discussion at this link:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15278.0
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 12, 2016, 08:47:36 AM
Wow! What an interesting combination.

The phone looks like one of those AE look-alikes that uses a 51AL base. It has an AE Type 52 (I think) dial.

If the dial can generate 11 pulses, it is one of many AE control dials with the wrong number plate (and wrong centre).

If the dial can only generate 10 pulses, it is a standard dial with the wrong finger wheel (and wrong centre).

Check the dial and see if it can generate 11 pulses or post some good pictures of the rear of the dial.

Thanks

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Dan/Panther on January 12, 2016, 02:47:19 PM
Is it an illusion in the photo, or does it appear that the blank space on the dial, seems to be the same distance as on a 10 digit dial ? It almost appears in some of the photos posted that the dials also appear larger diameter ?
Or should I put the pipe down.

D/P
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 12, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on January 12, 2016, 02:47:19 PM
Is it an illusion in the photo, or does it appear that the blank space on the dial, seems to be the same distance as on a 10 digit dial ? It almost appears in some of the photos posted that the dials also appear larger diameter ?
Or should I put the pipe down.

D/P

You would need to compare the finger wheels from the same type of dial. The dial in question is an AE dial, the finger wheel you posted is from a WE dial. WE dials and AE dials have a different a interdigit delay (therefore a different space between the 1 and the 0 holes.

Jack
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: rdelius on January 12, 2016, 10:22:22 PM
That dial is a standard one pulled out of an 80 E set with a sticker with letters and numbers,fingerwheel and sided painted.I think the black finger stop changes how the distance looks between the 0 and 1 holes.Phoneco modified dial
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 12, 2016, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: rdelius on January 12, 2016, 10:22:22 PM
That dial is a standard one pulled out of an 80 E set with a sticker with letters and numbers,fingerwheel and sided painted.I think the black finger stop changes how the distance looks between the 0 and 1 holes.Phoneco modified dial

Which dial are you referring to? The dial that is the subject of the thread has 11 finger holes.

Jack
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: N7LTH on January 13, 2016, 06:58:51 AM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on January 12, 2016, 08:47:36 AM
Wow! What an interesting combination.

The phone looks like one of those AE look-alikes that uses a 51AL base. It has an AE Type 52 (I think) dial.

If the dial can generate 11 pulses, it is one of many AE control dials with the wrong number plate (and wrong centre).

If the dial can only generate 10 pulses, it is a standard dial with the wrong finger wheel (and wrong centre).

Check the dial and see if it can generate 11 pulses or post some good pictures of the rear of the dial.

Thanks

Regards
Jack

I'm now beginning to think that the dial is original; in another thread, Doug Rose posted a NOS dial virtually identical to the one on my phone (wouldn't mind finding one of those for restoration). Shown here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.0

On another note, I posted my telephone photo on Facebook and it has generated quite a discussion from my FB friends as to what it could have been used for...
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: rdelius on January 13, 2016, 09:45:35 AM
I was refering to the dial D/P posted ,not the one with extra holes
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: poplar1 on January 13, 2016, 10:17:13 AM
Quote from: N7LTH on January 13, 2016, 06:58:51 AM


I'm now beginning to think that the dial is original; in another thread, Doug Rose posted a NOS dial virtually identical to the one on my phone (wouldn't mind finding one of those for restoration). Shown here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.0


The dial in Doug's original post (February 16, 2015, 10:40:40 AM) is quite different: notice that the finger stop is mounted on the inside of the case, not on the outside with a Phillips screw. The inside finger stop mount allows the dial to fit in phones that take a recessed dial.

Sorry to disappoint, but your phone is probably a product of the master "cobbler," Ron Knappen of phoneco, Galesville, WI. They use repro WE Candlestick bases and AE dials that originally had extended number plates from 1960s-1970s era AE 80s and 90s.

http://phonecoinc.com/topic.asp?map=1&hhrl=home&gorl=group&group=main&category=Art&topic=01035
http://phonecoinc.com/topic.asp?map=1&hhrl=home&gorl=group&group=main&category=CandPart&topic=01025

Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 13, 2016, 11:24:19 AM
Quote from: rdelius on January 13, 2016, 09:45:35 AM
I was refering to the dial D/P posted ,not the one with extra holes

But that one has 11 holes.

Jack
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 13, 2016, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: N7LTH on January 13, 2016, 06:58:51 AM
I'm now beginning to think that the dial is original; in another thread, Doug Rose posted a NOS dial virtually identical to the one on my phone (wouldn't mind finding one of those for restoration). Shown here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.0

On another note, I posted my telephone photo on Facebook and it has generated quite a discussion from my FB friends as to what it could have been used for...

The dial Doug posted is an AE dial but a different type - probably a Type 51A. It appears to be a configured to generate 10 pulses but has the wrong finger wheel on it.

I can't tell how many pulses your dial generates without a good picture of the rear but it is not original as is.

As I indicated before, I believe your phone is a combination of reproduction and recycled parts.

Are the facebook comments in a public place?

Jack
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: NorthernElectric on January 13, 2016, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on January 13, 2016, 11:24:19 AM
Quote from: rdelius on January 13, 2016, 09:45:35 AM
I was refering to the dial D/P posted ,not the one with extra holes

But that one has 11 holes.

Jack

Not only does it have 11 holes, but it appears to me to be a crop of the original poster's photo that Dan marked with arrows to show the spacing between the first and last hole; so they are one and the same.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Dan/Panther on January 13, 2016, 01:11:06 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on January 12, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on January 12, 2016, 02:47:19 PM
Is it an illusion in the photo, or does it appear that the blank space on the dial, seems to be the same distance as on a 10 digit dial ? It almost appears in some of the photos posted that the dials also appear larger diameter ?
Or should I put the pipe down.

D/P

You would need to compare the finger wheels from the same type of dial. The dial in question is an AE dial, the finger wheel you posted is from a WE dial. WE dials and AE dials have a different a interdigit delay (therefore a different space between the 1 and the 0 holes.

Jack


Yes but the dials are the same diameter, so unless the holes are different size that should not matter which dial I use to compare the spacing. So the holes would have to be smaller, closer together, or the dial itself would have to be slightly larger, which it does not appear to be.
I over layed the two photos, to show the spacing of the finger holes.

D/P
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther on January 13, 2016, 01:11:06 PM
Yes but the dials are the same diameter, so unless the holes are different size that should not matter which dial I use to compare the spacing. So the holes would have to be smaller, closer together, or the dial itself would have to be slightly larger, which it does not appear to be.
I over layed the two photos, to show the spacing of the finger holes.

Yes, that is true. I mis-understood the point you were making - sorry about that.

Jack
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: AE_Collector on January 13, 2016, 06:38:39 PM
I am going to say that there are some good points in the hole size and hole spacing part of this discussion. I have noticed what D/P was pointing out as well but never really paid it any attention. I don't have any protractors or means to do any accurate measurements here. But I do have a spare chromed AE fingerwheel sitting here which I placed directly on top of a couple of other AE fingerwheels (both a metal one and a plastic one) except off set so that the holes on my spare finger wheel sit over the blank space on the other fingerwheels.

There is almost exactly room for three more finger holes in the blank area of an AE fingerwheel. That would mean that there is room for 13 fingerholes in a 3" AE fingerwheel.

Then I put the spare AE fingerwheel over a WECo dial and there is really only room for two more fingerholes in the blank space of a 3" WECo fingerwheel so room for only 12 finger holes in a WECo 3" fingerwheel. Additionally, the spacing IS slightly different between the two, obviously it has to be in order to fit one more finger hole into the same diameter AE fingerwheel as compared to a WECo fingerwheel. The AE finger holes are either slightly smaller or are slightly closer together or likely both.

Putting 11 fingerholes into an AE fingerwheel and comparing that to a normal 10 hole WECo fingerwheel makes the blank area on both fingerwheels almost identical in size.

Terry

Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 13, 2016, 07:17:24 PM
I haven't made any measurements myself but based on AE's own documents, the finger hole size was increased on the 1918 version of the Mercedes dial but the additional interdigit delay wasn't added until 1926 with the release of the Type 24 dial - the so called "delayed impulse dial".

The Western Electric dial was based on the earlier AE dial with the smaller interdigit delay.

Jack
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: N7LTH on January 13, 2016, 07:28:11 PM
Well, I took the mystery phone to my workbench and removed the base... yep, it's a bleep-blank-censored FrankenPhone. Ten pulses from an 11-hole dial, among other things...

Oh, well- you live and learn :) such is life.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 13, 2016, 07:31:40 PM
Quote from: N7LTH on January 13, 2016, 07:28:11 PM
Oh, well- you live and learn

Exactly, so the phone was a good investment!

Jack

I agree with Jack, ANYTIME you find an oddity, it's good investment.

D/P
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: N7LTH on January 13, 2016, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on January 13, 2016, 07:31:40 PM

Exactly, so the phone was a good investment!

Jack

In that regard, it certainly was. I can also cannibalize it if need be for future phones in my collection.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on January 15, 2016, 01:13:52 PM
It's also an example of what extents a modern refurbishing house will go to in order to create a phone. It isn't a cheap quarter-pound hunk of plastic made in China, it uses old parts, and any repro parts on it are closely replicated from the real thing.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Owain on August 12, 2018, 06:25:07 PM
I don't know how it made it to the UK, but there's a Collins Autotune dial on Ebay UK

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REDUCED-Rare-11-Position-Telephone-Dial-For-Collins-Autotune-Radio-Transmitter/183375851248

Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Jim Stettler on August 12, 2018, 07:51:13 PM
Quote from: Owain on August 12, 2018, 06:25:07 PM
I don't know how it made it to the UK, but there's a Collins Autotune dial on Ebay UK

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REDUCED-Rare-11-Position-Telephone-Dial-For-Collins-Autotune-Radio-Transmitter/183375851248


I have a collins autotune set. It looks like a metal WE 302'. It has the same dial. There is a a metal plate riveted to the bottom. It had a "F# PTT handset w/ collins aropund the bezel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ISTR that these had to do with early radio-telephony for a truckers network. The "A" dialed you into a private radio network. ISTR This network ran along East/West Highways. It may of become affiliated with MCI. I could be totally wrong as well.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Doug Rose on August 12, 2018, 09:46:14 PM
I have an AE dial like this with the A on a tele-chec Phone....Doug
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: Dan/Panther on August 13, 2018, 02:06:08 PM
Question for Paul.

On the other thread I made a comment, that possibly if you dial, and hold the unmarked hole, might create a mute situation, can you comment on that ?

D/P
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: TelePlay on August 13, 2018, 07:12:10 PM
     Regular Member Post (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20151.msg206412#msg206412)

The eBay listing has an image of the dial's back side (first image below). The company name on the dial is "Telephonics." A google search turned up the company web site

     https://www.telephonics.com/

has a link to their "visual" 80 year history in a pdf brochure

     https://www.telephonics.com/uploads/standard/TelephonicsA-Visual-History.pdf

(which has been attached here) and within that brochure it shows a dial made in the 1950 similar to the dial listed on eBay with not much about the dial, red box on the second image below.

Function and/or application(s) of the dial was not found, might have missed it. However, if you look through the historical brochure, it's interesting to see how the company changed over the years to keep up with technology. There current product line is impressive in application.
Title: Re: Never seen a rotary dial like this one.
Post by: rdelius on August 13, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
Many if not all TP 6A sets have Telephonics dials. Most parts will interchange with AE.Collins made many autotune radios for the military. The transmitter could be in a remote location and could change to preset channels and be tuned to the antenna.