Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Collector's Corner => Topic started by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 01:58:21 PM

Title: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 01:58:21 PM
Just got back from town with my first ae 34 and it appears to be Canadian.

Phillips electrical works still showing faintly on the stamp on the bottom and the dial says Phillips made in Canada on the back.

Dials out, receives and transmits, rings, but gives off one "DING" when picked up and another when put back on the hook-up only when plugged in.

Is that normal?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 02:10:17 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 01:58:21 PM
Just got back from town with my first ae 34 and it appears to be Canadian.

Phillips electrical works still showing faintly on the stamp on the bottom and the dial says Phillips made in Canada on the back.

Dials out, receives and transmits, rings, but gives off one "DING" when picked up and another when put back on the hook-up only when plugged in.

Is that normal?
Please open it and check the ringer to see whether the long bias spring is still attached. It pulls the clapper slightly to one side to prevent this.  IIRC, on these, the spring is very long and almost parallel to one of the ringer coils. Perhaps the attachment on one side has failed or it is missing.

PS: Sorry, you already provided a picture of the ringer, I glanced past it.   So you do have that spring in place, I think you just need to tighten it a little bit.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: DavePEI on November 01, 2015, 02:11:53 PM
Yep. You've got a Phillips Electrical Works AE34, made in Brockville prior to 1954 when manufacture shifted to the new AE plant on Strowger Blvd.

It is possible (good chance) it is a frequency ringer.

Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 01:58:21 PM
Just got back from town with my first ae 34 and it appears to be Canadian.

Phillips electrical works still showing faintly on the stamp on the bottom and the dial says Phillips made in Canada on the back.

Dials out, receives and transmits, rings, but gives off one "DING" when picked up and another when put back on the hook-up only when plugged in.

Is that normal?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 02:13:22 PM
Here are a couple of handset pics
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 02:18:56 PM
If it is a frequency ringer it still rings on my line in. ;D

How do you tighten the spring?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 02:25:25 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 02:18:56 PM
If it is a frequency ringer it still rings on my line in. ;D

How do you tighten the spring?

It is not a frequency ringer, because it has the spring.
Isn't there a screw on the fixed anchor point toward the gongs?
Frequency ringers have a very stiff reed spring on which the clapper is mounted and hold the clapper in the center between the gongs, and don't usually experience bell tapping, I believe.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 02:29:37 PM
The phone looks to be in exquisite condition, congrats. Are the cords original cloth?

[PS:  I think at least one of them seem a modern repro, not? ]
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: DavePEI on November 01, 2015, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 02:18:56 PM
If it is a frequency ringer it still rings on my line in. ;D

How do you tighten the spring?
Ok, I missed your statement that is did ring. I had thought that you had said when it rang, it only tapped once.

Did you add the photo of the ringer later? I missed it the first time I looked at your post.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 02:37:07 PM
Cords are cloth but look repro to me

Here is a closeup of the bias spring from the gong end
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 02:43:02 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 02:37:07 PM
Cords are cloth but look repro to me
I think that's what I just sensed too.
Quote
Here is a closeup of the bias spring from the gong end
Ah right...   You have to bend that metal lug onto which the spring is hooked a little with pliers.  Not much should be required.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 03:10:45 PM
Had to move the bells and adjust the spring

Fine no.w

Thanks!

Just thrilled to find this one.

115 of your us dollars for it but no shipping and it is from up here.

Don't think I'd find that deal on eBay.....

Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: CanadianGuy on November 01, 2015, 03:20:09 PM
I wonder if there's something else at play on the network side? I have a cheapy corded phone with an electronic ringer that cheeps once sometimes when I pick it up to dial out. Or maybe it's sometimes when I pick up my cordless. Anyway, that's just a guess. Maybe it's just something to do with a set's REN.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: poplar1 on November 01, 2015, 03:54:48 PM
The clapper should not touch the gong while it's not ringing; there should be a gap of at least 1/64 inch. Also, it's usually best to try reversing polarity (swapping the incoming line wires) before adjusting the tension on the biasing spring.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: NorthernElectric on November 01, 2015, 04:28:07 PM
Nice find rbouch!  All I got today was another boring metal 302.   :)
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 04:50:54 PM
Love those metal 302s!

But yes, this makes for a nice change, honestly didn't think I'd find a canadian one.

Does anyone know when they stopped making these in canada?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 02:13:22 PM
Here are a couple of handset pics

That appears to be an IC type handset (receiver). There appears to be an IC in the phone and I don't remember ever seeing an AE 34 that used an electromagnetic receiver.

Jack
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 06:13:30 PM
Well I have seen the electromagnetic receiver before in pictures of these phones, but can you excuse my lack of knowledge and tell me what an IC type handset is and what type of phone one would usually find them with?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 06:30:55 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 06:13:30 PM
Well I have seen the electromagnetic receiver before in pictures of these phones, but can you excuse my lack of knowledge and tell me what an IC type handset is and what type of phone one would usually find them with?

The winding of the electromagnetic receiver used in the Type 38 style handset is tapped (it has a three wire connection) and is used to perform the function of an Induction Coil (IC) in addition to (1) forming a magnetic bias (there is no permanent magnet) and (2) driving the diaphragm.

The receiver incorporates the function of an anti-sidetone Induction Coil.

Does your phone have an induction coil? It looks like it does.

Jack

Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 06:38:41 PM
I would argue that both types of AE receivers are electromagnetic receivers, no matter whether they use a permanent magnet or not.

I could not make any view of the posts in the pictures.

Here is what to look for.   The picture was provided by stub,  here (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14802.msg155281#msg155281).
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 06:40:33 PM
Well you guys are past me, but I assume that is an induction coil sitting underneath the ringer?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 06:38:41 PM
I would argue that both types of AE receivers are electromagnetic receivers, no matter whether they use a permanent magnet or not.

I could not make any view of the posts in the pictures.

One could argue that but a lot of manufacturers used the term "electromagnetic" to describe what AE called "DC" receivers. Conventional receivers containing a permanent magnet were called "biased" receivers.

Jack
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 06:47:48 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 06:40:33 PM
Well you guys are past me, but I assume that is an induction coil sitting underneath the ringer?

That's what I had assumed. Pity there is no circuit diagram.

Jack
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 06:38:41 PM
I would argue that both types of AE receivers are electromagnetic receivers, no matter whether they use a permanent magnet or not.

I could not make any view of the posts in the pictures.

One could argue that but a lot of manufacturers used the term "electromagnetic" to describe what AE called "DC" receivers. Conventional receivers containing a permanent magnet were called "biased" receivers.

Jack

yes, but that does not disqualify the technically correct term.

@ rbouch, I attached a picture to my post earlier, so you can compare.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 06:54:16 PM
Yes
Those posts are present in the receiver
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 06:55:04 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 06:48:40 PM
yes, but that does not disqualify the technically correct term.

Of course, you are correct. Life it easier though if, when you go shopping, you ask for an item using the name the seller or manufacturer uses.

The use of the word "biased" is totally confusing. Obviously it refers to a magnetic bias not a DC bias. It makes life interesting...

Jack
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 07:07:16 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 06:55:04 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 06:48:40 PM
yes, but that does not disqualify the technically correct term.

Of course, you are correct. Life it easier though if, when you go shopping, you ask for an item using the name the seller or manufacturer uses.

The use of the word "biased" is totally confusing. Obviously it refers to a magnetic bias not a DC bias. It makes life interesting...

Jack

Actually, the term 'bias' refers to the mechanical state of the diaphragm, in rather analogous manner as in a biased ringer, namely that the diaphragm is constantly under tension, being permanently curved toward the magnet.  This is in contrast to the "unbiased" types which must not have DC flowing through the receiver where the diaphragm is free of tension when no speech is converted.
Of course you are correct that this tension comes from the magnetism.

The "rest state", i.e. when no speech is converted has very characteristics implication to the performance of the unit.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 07:13:06 PM
 so what is the point of this handset being on this phone?

Is it a handset that shouldn't be paired with this phone?

I'll say this-the whole thing looks like it came out of box yesterday to me......
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 07:23:00 PM
Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 07:13:06 PM
so what is the point of this handset being on this phone?

Is it a handset that shouldn't be paired with this phone?

I'll say this-the whole thing looks like it came out of box yesterday to me......

A phone with an induction coil handset does not need an induction coil in the base. The induction coil that you do have, is below the tilted-up end of the ringer.
Since the cords are nice and reproductions, it may mean someone made this phone from parts that originally did not belong together.  After all, some parts may not be easily obtained to restore a phone to complete authenticity.   I suppose an induction coil handset might be wired to work with a separate induction coil, but I have not examined the electrical foundation of that.  Perhaps, the fact there is no diagram inside the unit, is another indication that it is not quite a correct restoration, technically.

I think you still have a nice set, worthy to be displayed and be proud of.
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 07:23:31 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 07:07:16 PM
Actually, the term 'bias' refers to the mechanical state of the diaphragm, in rather analogous manner as in a biased ringer, namely that the diaphragm is constantly under tension, being permanently curved toward the magnet.  This is in contrast to the "unbiased" types which must not have DC flowing through the receiver where the diaphragm is free of tension when no speech is converted.

In some jurisdictions an unbiased receiver has no magnetic bias (from a permanent magnet) and requires a DC current.

Anyway, I'll try to use AE terminology for this discussion. The question is whether this AE 34 should have a handset with a DC receiver.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 01, 2015, 07:29:02 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 01, 2015, 07:23:00 PM
A phone with an induction coil handset does not need an induction coil in the base. The induction coil that you do have, is below the tilted-up end of the ringer.
Since the cords are nice and reproductions, it may mean someone made this phone from parts that originally did not belong together.  After all, some parts may not be easily obtained to restore a phone to complete authenticity.   I suppose an induction coil handset might be wired to work with a separate induction coil, but I have not examined the electrical foundation of that.  Perhaps, the fact there is no diagram inside the unit, is another indication that it is not quite a correct restoration, technically.

I think you still have a nice set, worthy to be displayed and be proud of.

I agree with both sentiments.

Jack
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 07:32:50 PM
Okay

Thanks guys, that I understand,

The same guy had a Siemens 366 with an e1 handset and I passed it by even though I know some part of it was used in Saskatchewan at some point,

So the assembled from parts thing makes sense
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: stub on November 01, 2015, 09:08:09 PM
rbouch ,
           SWEET phone !!!!!!!!!!!!
           Here 's the diagram for the induction coil handset and one with induction coil in base.
           Here's the correct receiver for your phone.  Hope this helps.   stub
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 10:39:25 PM
Thanks Kenneth
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 02, 2015, 01:27:47 AM
It looks like I knew the two versions of the AE 34A2 existed but I had forgotten. I posted this elsewhere.

I wonder what would make an operating company choose the DC receiver over the conventional booster circuit at that time? It would be cheaper but it is more sensitive to line length (loop current).

Jack
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: DavePEI on November 02, 2015, 04:33:38 AM
I can't give you the exact date they stopped making the AE34, but I would say in the late 40s. Then the AE40 came about, and they manufactured them, too in Brockville. I have examples of the Phillips (made in 1947) AE34b, the AE 40, and the AE80, as well as a very interesting Wooden Monophone (27/12/1945) (monophone still has its inspection tag in it).

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11635.msg125731#msg125731 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11635.msg125731#msg125731)

My AE 34 isn't the A3 version. I found mine in a lot which a Seattle recycler got his hands on - it was the grimiest of the bunch, but other than grime, it was perfect (with the exception of some damage to the side grill, easily repaired). I also got an extensicord for it at the same time and some spare parts for $100 or therabouts landed. It, also is a beauty. The grime was easily removed, but it did result in my getting it for a really good deal, as it looked horrible in his initial photo. Really farm fresh  8)

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9000.msg96878#msg96878 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9000.msg96878#msg96878)

At one point, AE owned some 90% of the plant, and in 1953, they began building their new plant, opening in 1954 on Schofield Hill, on Strowger Blvd. Wonder how the street got is name?  8)

At that point, the Phillips plant closed down their phone manufacturing building, and production moved up to the new AE plant. The cable portions of the plant was then sold to British Calender Cables, and continued manufacturing wire and cable for AE on King St. West.

It finally was demolished a few years ago.

I sort of grew up in the glory days of both plants, and wish they had both continued manufacturing.  I remember many of the employees of both.

Dave

Quote from: rbouch on November 01, 2015, 04:50:54 PM
Does anyone know when they stopped making these in canada?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: rbouch on November 07, 2015, 06:42:15 PM
Dave, Jack, Unbeldi, Stub

Thanks so much for the info. I love the phone and being able to find out the details like this is more than appreciated.

I just came into an AE 5O from BC and noticed it had the same style of ringer as this one.

Much larger than the ringer on my AE 40, which is also Canadian but mid 50's or later.

Are these ringers restricted to a time period or a country (US vs Canadian)?
Title: Re: Canadian Ae 34
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 07, 2015, 07:17:36 PM
Over time the ringers in AE 40 and AE 50 were upgraded from the older "low impedance" ringers (the large ones) to newer "high impedance" ringers (the smaller ones). I don't know exactly when that happened or if the timing was similar for the US and Canadian factories.

Generally, the AE 40s with ID numbers starting with 40 have older (larger) ringers and those with ID numbers starting with 41 have newer (smaller) ringers. The same is true of AE 50s with ID numbers starting with 50 and 51.

Jack