I just picked up this pay station and trying to figure out what was done to it or what it needs. The code # plate on the top has 150HJ. I am using Ron's book to pin down a date and some info and I am going all over the place from the 40's to the 1960's. The coin return chute is not complete and either it came with a closed bucket or one was attempted to be installed from an open chute. It has a hole drilled on the side and a pin also. It came with an F1 handset and I wonder if should be an AE handset. More pictures to come.
That square coin vault is not proper for a Grey paystation.The hook appears to be a AE part also
More pics
Hi, The top is pre 1952 as it has the straps for mounting bell and gong to the housing in some models of the phone, most likely Gray like the ID tag. The ID tag refers to a phone equipped with handset using a W.E antisidetone subset and accepts US and Canadian coins. A.E. appears to have added reinforcing welds visible on the back of the back board in the early 1950's as they are visible on a NOS. A.E. 150GJC shown on a collectors' website dated 1952. However, they are not on my Gray Manufacturing backboard and slightly earlier A.E. backboards that have factory drilled holes for 101 ind. coils which became an option in 1950, that are otherwise made the same way. I wish I had the schematic for this phone as it exactly matches the description of the ten cent conversion of the 150 series phones as described in A.E. bulletin #499 recently posted in the incoming section of the TCI doc. library. I have 2, 34-40 era Grays (not Gray-Westerns) that I reconstructed from phones updated by the Rodchester Tel. Co., one two piece, one handset. However, I couldn't afford, even if I could locate, the rare textured, but 5 cent lead coin chute that these phones originally came with. Yet, If I had the drawings and schematics that went with the the bulletin #499, that weren't posted on the TCI site, I could authentically equip these phones as the independent phone company equivalent of the Bell System 155G and 174G paystations. Russell
Roody you may be interested in looking at the patent information as indicated on the old Gray Pay Station Company tag attached to your set. The inventor for all of the patents is George, A., Long, of Hartford, CT. The first patent number, which is 917742, dated April 1909, isn't on the tag, but it appears to be the original basis upon which the subsequent patents were based.
All of the patents have been combined into one "PDF" document which is attached.
Jeff Lamb
For starters you have a nice phone The KJ and HJ are Gray handset models from two piece payphones. Understand that when A/E bought Gray they continued to make the Gray models, so you find find the A/E payphones in the Gray configuration. That is what you have. If you are going to make a change I would put a open coin return Gray bottom on it. One on ebay now. If you are very particular I have the proper wiring harness I believe with cloth wire and wood terminal strip. The chute is fine it was common and was used when changed to 10 cents. The chute you mentioned that was Gray in your post is not only expensive it no longer exist. I know of one and I have it in the collection.
Is there a piece of this chute missing or does it look broken?
Is this a Gray bottom that would work?
That will work.
that would be the proper time frame for your phone.
That open coin return on that AE flat fronted coin vault is missing the pull bucket.The older type without the pull bucket is totaily different, has a lower lip that hangs out.
This may look a little more like it should. Thanks for all the help!
Roody
Not really.
The 150HJ was a prepay payphone. In other words the initial deposit had to be made to get a dial tone, then you dialed the number
The instruction card on your phone is for a postpay phone.
In other words you made the initial deposit after the called party answered.
See below.
Stan S.
Great info and pictures. Do you know the year? I can't tell from the picture if the is an E1 handset or an AE type 38.
Roody
Looks like an AE handset.
However, Gray allowed you to order any handset or dial you preferred. The dial on your payphone is an AE. The dial in the picture from the catalog is a Western.
The payphone in the catalog is 5 cent initial deposit. Your payphone was modified for 10 cent initial deposit probably some time after 1950.
Stan S.
Roody
Below is a scan of the prepay card for your payphone.
It should print to the proper size.
Stan S.
Thanks Stan. Perfect!
How common is this model and what would a range of value be?
Value of the telephone is between 300-350 in my opinion. Here is why,upper is common backboard is common,tag is rare, tag alone is valued at 100-150. Chute is common. Number ring and shroud are rare. It is missing the Gray relay,gray relays are very rare. It is missing the Gray lead chute. With the correct parts it would be a 800-900 dollar phone. The older Gray Paystation Company bottom would also help the value. When I started collecting payphones it took me about 10 years to even put a dent in finding the various Gray models. They are very hard to come by in original condition,most of what you find is parts and pieces. I spent 25 years finding my first 34A8 and 34A10 there are many Grays you will never find. What even makes it more interesting is that when Gray sold to A/E for a very short time they made all the Gray models. The only difference was the bottoms said A/E and the top tags which there were two versions of said Automatic electric. All these early A/E models like a A/E 34A11 are very hard to get. There was even a A/E 150K which I have the tag but not the phone. I do have the parts to build it just have not got to it yet. If I get some time I will post some pics of rare Grays. Early Gray prepay are some of the rarest because the independent companies just did not have that many prepaid central offices. Then of course we get into all the Strowger A/E stuff which is a deeper conversation.
Gray pre- pay relay
post pay relay
Grays waiting to be refurbished.
Very nice Jim. Thanks for the peek behind the curtain!
in the last picture look at the G handset with the giant armor cord.
What in the world is the story behind that incredibly fat handset cord?
I was wondering if anybody was going to ask me that,I believe it was the first armored cord that was used on a payphone. When I get a chance I will post it as a topic and take better pictures. This is the only one I have and or have ever seen. However I have evidence of them being on several models which I will share. Jim
Jim - Great info & pics! Thank you. Question - why is there a relay at all in a post-pay phone? There is no way to return the coins, so why not just let them drop into the coin box?
The difference between a prepay relay and a post pay relay is the pre-pay had the arm that operated the coin gate or vane and the trap. The coin vane controlled the direction the coin would go right or left,in the box or in the return.
The lever on the back of the pre-paid relay moved to control this process based on voltage applied by the Central office. The trigger on the relay detected coin presence. It is how the CO knew the coin was there.
The post pay relay only detected the coin, it took no part in any other function of the phone. Detecting the coin presence or deposit was all it needed to do. Upon coin detect the transmitter was opened and the coin went in the box. The coin return was pretty much useless on a post pay set.
Thanks for the detail, Jim. It still seems strange that AE used a fairly complex, expensive device for this versus the WE approach, as in a 193G. True? Perhaps the AE part shared many components with the pre-pay relay, so they felt it was cost-effective to build it that way...
I do not fully understand the A/E process as I was never exposed to their methods. I do know they had something called semi post pay which I have not taken the time to understand. I do remember trying to use one of there single slot post pay sets in the 80's and it would not work. I have always considered them a second rate company to the Bell companies. I could expand on this further based on my experience of becoming a independent phone company myself and having to deal with both companies from the outside looking in.
Paul and Jim
You have to look at the big picture and the time frame to understand the difference between Western Electric and Automatic Electric Postpay 3-slots.
AE sold to small independent telephone companies. Basically mom and pop operations that didn't have unlimlted resources like the Bell System.
An AE Semipostpay LPA, LPB or LPC 86-55 was a wonder of mechanical and electrical engineering. A Western Electric 193 was pretty much just an empty box that required a lot of central office equipment.
Any AE Semipostpay 3-slot could be connected to ANY PHONE LINE. Meaning, if you could buy an AE Semipostpay phone you could hook it up to the phone line in your home and it would work as a fully functioning postpay payphone. It didn't need a special payphone coin line or any specialized central office equipment. That was in the 50s, 60s and maybe the 1970s.
When Semipostpay AEs were in service 'Called Party Supervision' was the norm for central office equipment. Remember, we are talking about the 1950s. 60s, and maybe into the 1970s. Called Party Supervsion reversed the polarity of the TIP and RING of the phone PLACING the call when the CALLED PHONE answered. It was that change in polarity that controlled the Semipostpay coin relay in the AE payphone. Unfortunately, Called Party Supervision is no longer a function used on standard phone lines. Called Party Supervision was also detected and used on a lot of not quite legal telephone devices. Some of them by our Government and some not. Maybe a story for another time.
In later years the mechanically complicated AE Semipostpay coin relays were replaced by a simple aftermarket asssembly manufactured by The Teltronics Corp. This assembly was designed around a newly developed electronic part called an SCR. There are many payphones equipped with Teltronics assemblies that show up on Ebay even today.
Stan S.
Stan - Thanks for the detail - that makes perfect sense.
To follow up on Stans post the reverse battery feature was available in some central offices at the Bell companies. In smart payphones a answer was detected with what they called AD or Answer Detect.
Answer detect listened for voice like Hello, it could also detect a busy signal or a ring tone. If you got a tape like please hang up and try again you often lost your money.
What was supposed to happen was on a CO message you received a SIC tone from the CO this told the phone to return the coin.
The problem is that over time the phone companies got lax on providing coin tones.
I learned something from Stan here today that the semi post pay A/E used reverse battery. That makes perfect sense.
In a smart set like Protel there is a feature to allow the payphone to collect the coin on reverse battery instead of Answer Detect. I never used it as a payphone provider because it required a different type of coin line that was only available in some areas and carried a extra cost.
Keep in mind reverse battery is a form of office supervision. A coin line Dial Tone First coin line used reverse battery in concert with collect return voltage to cause the phone to act as a pre-paid. The DTF payphone line could be used on a dumb or smart set.
The Protel smart set has the ability in the software to accept a DTF line,I have learned a lot using this software as the setting in it educate you on the function of the CO from the outside.
The smart set is basically a mini CO interacting with the telephone network on its own. It knows calling areas and responds to line conditions as it monitors the telephone line. It contains options files and routing files. It is a amazing telephone.
Here is the part I know Stan would agree with me on DO NOT BUY A SMART PHONE unless you know what kind it is and you have access to the software. You are only buying a case if you don't have these two items.