Hi-
I was wondering if any of you have seen this type of phone before? I found it tucked away in my collection. I forgot that I had it. Its a automatic electric monophone. I never seen anything like it before. It has four buttons and another button on top. It look original, the buttons. Its a very cool phone. I don't think someone did it home-style. Here are a few pics of it. When I push one of the buttons, the handset pop up and down. I am not sure how to use the buttons. Any help would be very appreciated. Check out the pics.
John
AE type 47.It is a 2 or 3 line version of a type 40.Note H (hold) button next to answer button.No key system needed. Puts a resistor on line for hold.Button next to cradle can be a 3rd line or used as a buzzer push button.Has only one ringer inside so an external ringer would be needed for the otherline. Set is newer than the type 40. Introduced late 1940s.
A good description of this type is in the patent publication, which wasn't approved until 1952.
The code on the base seems to conflict with the configuration of the telephone.
I haven't come across other that a "standard" Type 47 before and the code specifies no chrome highlights and a frequency ringer. Any chance of "popping the hood"?
Thanks
Jack
Quote from: Jack Ryan on June 19, 2016, 10:28:43 PM
The code on the base seems to conflict with the configuration of the telephone.
I haven't come across other that a "standard" Type 47 before and the code specifies no chrome highlights and a frequency ringer. Any chance of "popping the hood"?
Thanks
Jack
The markings on my AE47 are: L4111 ESL, 7-57-5 (1957?)
Quote from: Fabius on June 19, 2016, 11:08:26 PM
The markings on my AE47 are: L4111 ESL, 7-57-5 (1957?)
That is a standard Type 47 with black dial and straight line ringer.
I haven't recorded dates but 1957 is within the production period of the Type 47.
Jack
Thank you for the information, PDF file. Here are more pictures (inside). The whole product has a very clean slick look to it.
John
The ringer in your set appears to be a straight-line ringer, AE used a 0.4 µF capacitor (as printed on the coil label) only for the SL ringer. Does this match the capacitor installed? It also has an additional low-voltage buzzer installed, perhaps that was used for a local intercom circuit, or behind a key system. See the little round unit in front of the induction coil. Looks WECo style or some other brand.
I looked closer at the type 47 set. I built this set while at COT.I removed the large veristor and added a smaller one. This freed up space for the buzzer on the second line.The baseplate might not match the set, it was chosen for nice looks. All the chrome trim was added by us.Rings on the handset were custom made.
Quote from: rdelius on June 20, 2016, 09:37:10 AM
I looked closer at the type 47 set. I built this set while at COT.I removed the large veristor and added a smaller one. This freed up space for the buzzer on the second line.The baseplate might not match the set, it was chosen for nice looks. All the chrome trim was added by us.Rings on the handset were custom made.
Thanks. That explains the discrepancies then.
Jack
Quote from: John S on June 20, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
The whole product has a very clean slick look to it.
John
They are a marvel if mechanical engineering! If you look closely at the dial you notice that it doesn't quite sit flush like it does on an AE 40. They had to raise it up slightly to make enough room inside the housing for all the parts and pieces.
The interconnect between buttons and handset plungers is just like the AE 87 and the 187 phones. Since resistors in the phone perform the hold function, lines must be knocked off of hold when the phone is hung up thus a held line will be released if the receiver is put on the cradle. You will notice that the plungers never match on these phones. One will be chromed brass and the other black Bakelite OR on slightly newer sets one will be clear plastic and one red plastic. Only one plunger is interconnected with the mechanicals on the phone so the other plunger can be used to drop a call and get a new dial tone without having to completely hang up the receiver and then go off hook again. New users of these phones had to retrain themselves and after dumping a few calls inadvertently the user training was almost complete!
A = Answer (or Line)
H = Hold
An option for the little switch up top is as mentioned, a buzzer button or a Line 3 without a Hold function.
I was doing Installation and Repair Orders in downtown Vancouver when I first ran into two of these phones in an office. The office had two 47's and two 187's on a two line over line. I think that I was adding another one or two 187 sets. Seeing these two phones instantly put me into "salesman mode" offering to get them two more 187's to swap out "those OLD sets". The business owner wasn't having any of it though. He then told me that he used to have four of them but had to downsize for awhile removing two of them. When he arranged to have the two sets reinstalled later on he got the two new 187's in their place and he still wasn't very happy about it. I knew that I was beat and would have to continue my search for AE 47's elsewhere. I have four or five of them now.
Terry
Very cool looking phone. It's amazing how they can put that much mechanical stuff in one housing. AE had very talented designers & mechanical engineers. 4 or 5 of them Terry, lucky man & very persistent searcher.
I am certain that the base plate of the pictured AE 47 has been swapped from a standard single line set.
L4123 is never a multi-line set, it should be 4106 or 4111.
The patent decal is also wrong. It is form number D-780504-A41, but should be D-780504-A46.
Yes too bad it won't be of much use for research now. I couldn't figure out what was up with the AC buzzer where the varistor was supposed to be but then rdelius explained what had happened!
Looks like Fabius has a 47 that would be nice to get more details about. I sent Tom a PM.
Terry
Quote from: unbeldi on January 16, 2017, 07:24:42 PM
I am certain that the base plate of the pictured AE 47 has been swapped from a standard single line set.
L4123 is never a multi-line set, it should be 4106 or 4111.
The patent decal is also wrong. It is form number D-780504-A41, but should be D-780504-A46.
I agree - I made that comment early on.
Jack
From phones with explicit dates stamped, 7-57-5 in that case (Fabius), we should be interested in learning the codes stamped on the transmitter, receiver, dial, and condenser.
Agreed. And see what the varistor has for a date on it as well.
Calling Fabius......Come in Fabius...
And ANYONE ELSE out there who has an AE 47!
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 16, 2017, 08:29:46 PM
Agreed. And see what the varistor has for a date on it as well.
Calling Fabius......Come in Fabius...
And ANYONE ELSE out there who has an AE 47!
Terry
I will not be where the AE47 is at (Michigan) for about 10 days. I'll take pictures then.
Okay thanks Tom. Need the date off the light gray colored varistor. The date is kind of hard to see, is in brackets like (12-56). If possible need everything stamped on the base and the gold Decal if it has one, schematic diagram if it has one, codes on condensers, transmitter and receiver capsules and basically anything written anywhere!
Terry
I built that set at COT.parts were chosen for good looks.Sometimes parts were missing.I do not recall seeing any chrome trim except button esc. on Type 47 sets so it was added.Did some brass ones but chrome sold better
Just got home from Michigan. Here's a picture of the bottom. Will get the rest tomorrow.
If they asked me I'd say we don't need any more animated penquin movies for a while.
Quote from: Fabius on January 30, 2017, 08:14:08 PM
Just got home from Michigan. Here's a picture of the bottom. Will get the rest tomorrow.
The set was made a month before the official move to Northlake. I think this is the first set, I've seen with a date and the Chicago location. Or did they start manufacturing a little earlier in Northlake, before the administration moved and new decals were ready ?
I am familiar with that patent decal, having found it on another L-4111, which was marked L 4111 ESL ND11; D-780575-A
I have records of one other AE47 with a date on the base. The info was provided to me by forum member GG. Its Base Code was H870661 / 3 / 8-57-8 and still said Chicago 7 but that is all the info I have from the decal. So it was made one month later in Chicago (or Northlake), both have the similar date coding RATHER than the usual "RY7" type codes on the base (which really seems to me to indicate that the two letters are somehow a date code and the number matches up with the third digit of the more recognizable date code on newer sets and AE 80/90's). For what ever reason GG's 47 was an H set with completely non conventional first and second Base Code segments. I have a 47 set my self with Codes H870729 18 PD8 on the base and a Chicago 7 decal with D-780575-A13 gold decal listing the four patent years 1939, 1943, 1945 & 1953 Only.
One would assume that the move to Northlake went on over a period of at least several months with various manufacturing processes slowly making the move.
Looking forward to varistor Date and any "Two Letter" codes that can be found on the back of the dial, transmitter, receiver, or on either of the condensers. Also anything written/stamped on any of the components.
Terry
Here is one from 1959:
Finally their"Northlake" stickers arrived! However the printer left the patent dates and even the patent years off of them.
That 1959 set isn't one that we have any option of getting more info from presumably?
Terry
Nothing particularly interesting about it. Hi-Z ringer, D-56514-A SL, plain black trim (fingerwheel, carry-bar, handset). Z/0/Operator metro dial, 9-conductor cord.
L4111 GSL 7-59-6; D-780575-A Northlake
The two letter code from various components to compare to the date code would be good to have.
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 31, 2017, 10:36:52 AM
The two letter code from various components to compare to the date code would be good to have.
Terry
Well, that will remain a secret, not accessible anymore. The pictures are a few years old.
I am sure the transducers were Type 81. I don't think they made any 41 elements anymore in Northlake.
Inside i found a small sheet that shows connections for "old cord" and "new cord". Though in the photo the type looks black it is actually the type of blue that indicates it is the product mimeograph.
More
Thanks for all the pictures Tom. Does it look like the dial has the cast zinc type case rather than the stamped brass case? I think I can see that each dial contact leaf actually has two contacts on it thus it is a Type 51A dial (bifurcated contacts), can you confirm that?
I need the number on the Varistor as well. That is the light gray bobin thing between the hook switch and Induction Coil. It is half hiding under that electrical tape. Should have 3B (12-58) or something like that printed on it where 12-58 is month and year.
And can you see a two letter code on the big condenser? The little one has BP on it on the very bottom row of markings.
Open up the handset caps too and see if they are marked type 41 or 81 and if they have the two letter codes stamped on as well.
Thanks again for all the effort.
Unbeldi: What do you think of this one having cloth insulated wiring inside? That's a surprise for a set with an actual date code 7-57 on the bottom.
Terry
It is interesting that the wiring schematic lists the location as "Chicago". This is an older diagram. The new diagram showing "Northlake" was not ready yet either. Since the 47 Monophones were not made before 1949, and the postal rezoning took place in 1943, it is evident that the use of "Chicago" in diagrams or labels is not always significant in the timeline of manufacturing. But I have seen this with other schematic labels. A set that I evaluated as being manufactured between 1952 and 1957, has a schematic with "Chicago", cloth wiring, #51 (not 51A) dial.
We still don't have a clear dividing date between cloth and vinyl wire insulation. It could well be as late as 1957. The sets from Northlake that I have seen have vinyl wires.
It appears that Tom's mounting cord has vinyl insulations. (not Tom's, but his phone's ;D).
At least by second half of 1957—but I suspect earlier already, possibly 1955—the receiver and transmitter capsules in all Type 41 handsets should be of Type 81.
Speaking of plastic insulated internal wiring, it seems as though there was a change in it as plastic insulation progressed. Sort of like the soft plastic and newer ABS plastic phone housings. Early plastic insulation colors seem somewhat dark and are frequently covered with white mildew (?) like soft plastic phone parts where as the plastic wiring insulation in the 1959 AE47 posted above and another phone seen recently here has very bright clean wiring.
Now to type 41/81 transmitter and receiver capsules. I wonder if there are any electrical differences, particularly in the transmitters where the physical design never changed. The metal casing only changed in the material, brass and then aluminum. So the type 41 versus type 81 labelling may mean nothing other than keeping the numbering within the right range for the phone (handset type) it was used with.
The receiver capsules did eventually physically change quite significantly where as the transmitter capsules didn't. The earliest AE 80's still used the type 41 style receiver capsules though likely labelled as type 81. This was in the type 81 handset. Before long after the AE 80 was introduced the redesigned receiver capsule with screw terminals on the back were introduced and the handset changed from type 81 to type 810.
I hadn't thought about whether capsules labelled as type 41 were used in AE40's being built at the same time as capsules labelled as type 81 were being used in AE80's on the assembly line. It stands to reason that both phone types would get capsules labelled as type 81 particularly in the case where Northlake was just opening up and type 40 & 50 set production was dropping rapidly and 47's would be replaced by type 87's in the near future.
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on February 01, 2017, 12:13:36 PM
Speaking if plastic insulated internal wiring, it seems as though there was a change in it as plastic insulation progressed. Sort of like the soft plastic and newer ABS plastic phone housings. Early plastic insulation colors seem somewhat dark and are frequently covered with white mildew (?) like soft plastic phone parts where as the plastic wiring insulation in the 1959 AE47 posted above and another phone seen recently here has very bright clean wiring.
I suspect AE also used wiring with synthetic rubber insulation, isoprene or neoprene, before the vinyl/PVC insulation that was indeed brightly colored. Isoprene is dull like natural rubber.
I thought the resistance of the type 81 and 41 tx capsule were different.On the type 40 set, all the line current passed through it but some is shunted around in the type 80 sets with the veristors in the self compensating version.Type 41 rec capsules have an open sound hole and and are usually brass ,.can differ in impedance.Have found some ww2 vintage that were a high impedance for use with radios that had no output transformer.Type 81 rec had a plastic cover and are not brass
All of the AECo 81 transmitters are part # D-38363-A. The AECo 41 transmitters are D-38309-A but there are some -B versions as well. So the part number is different but that could be because of the 41 versus 81 stamping OR maybe there is something electrically different with them as well. There appears to have been some use of the "wrong" type in late 47 sets with Type 81 capsules. Maybe it wasn't a serious problem to use the newer type capsules in a phone with the old 40 type circuits.
Terry