Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Listed as a 1949 500, not many pictures. After asking 2 questions I pulled the trigger.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160773788603
( dead link 10-14-21 )

I have my fingers crossed and will let you know when it arrives.
Here is the Q & A:

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Dear d_and_h_cool_stuff,

Nothing on the Bottom, However under the transmitter cap looks like @ 32845 and on the bell "A 4 9"


- enad69 Click "respond" to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply






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From: d_and_h_cool_stuff
To: enad69
Subject: Re: Other: d_and_h_cool_stuff sent a message about 1949 Western Electric Model 500 Telephone #160773788603
Sent Date: Mar-29-12 16:14:43 PDT



Dear enad69,


Thanks for the reply. Is there any markings or stamps on the bottom of the phone? Can you open it up to look inside?
Thanks, Harry

On Mar 29, 2012 1:30 PM, "eBay Member: enad69" < <email address removed per policy>> wrote:

                       
eBay sent this message to D & H Cool Stuff (d_and_h_cool_stuff).
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Dear d_and_h_cool_stuff,

We cross referenced the date via a cancelled check my grandparents used to purchase the phone in December of 1949..

Dane


- enad69 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: d_and_h_cool_stuff
To: enad69
Subject: Other: d_and_h_cool_stuff sent a message about 1949 Western Electric Model 500 Telephone #160773788603
Sent Date: Mar-28-12 18:00:17 PDT


Dear enad69,

Where did you get the 1949 date from? Is the phone stamped anywhere with that date?
Thanks!


- d_and_h_cool_stuff 

                   
1949 Western Electric Model 500 Telephone
Item Id: 160773788603
End time: Apr-04-12 09:27:06 PDT
Seller:
enad69 (2)
100.0% Positive Feedback
Member since Jan-30-12 in United States
Location: CO, United States




                   
               

I hope you got a treasure, but suspect it's a really long shot.

Check out the photos of Dan's set.

The dial bezel on this one is much later.

How many 500 sets do you think the Bell System SOLD in 1949?

Quote from: paul-f on March 29, 2012, 11:53:44 PM
How many 500 sets do you think the Bell System SOLD in 1949?

I was going to say that but then noticed that it claims to be a Western Electric phone which would imply that it may not say "Property of the Bell System" on it or did they not differentiate Bell System owned phones versus those made by WECo and sold to Independants that way back then? Still not many privately sold phones in 1949 I would say, especially when the particular phone was virtually a field trial item. What is really surprising is that someone could just look up the records of a phone their grandparents bought in 1949???

Terry

Boy I hope your shot pays off!! I thought the handset cord was wrong. Didn't they have straight cords as opposed to curled ones? And if they were curled wouldn't they have a short nub at the handset? Could have been a replacement though. GOOD LUCK ! Let us know how you make out!

Yeah, I figured the cord was replaced. I was surprised to hear it was purchased also. He is going to try to get me a copy of the invoice and check from his aunt. I do not have too high hopes but you never know! I figured worse case scenario I could return it for not as described ::)

Quote from: liteamorn on March 30, 2012, 07:29:25 AM
Didn't they have straight cords as opposed to curled ones? And if they were curled wouldn't they have a short nub at the handset? Could have been a replacement though.

Coiled handset cords were always an option that could be added when the phone was installed or later on. Either cord is correct for an early 500 set. Coil cords became standard in 1957 or thereabouts.

That all being said, the coil cord on this phone is from the late 1960s or early 70s.

Forgot to add, the thing that made me buy it was when he gave me the numbers from the element "A 4 9".

Definitely worth rolling the dice on Harry, and at that price it would be the steal of the century! Good Luck! Let us know how you fare.

Good luck. I have a 49er  and was lucky to get it.

Harry-

I hope you got yourself a 1949 500 set, the part about the grandparents purchasing it in 1949 really is suspicious! According to internal Bell Labs documents dated 1949, announcing the introduction of the 500, there had been limited production since manufacturing was in the process of being moved from Hawthorne to Indianapolis for production starting in 1950.

There was such a severe shortage of these sets, Western Electric continued to produce 300-series, 5300, and Imperial (202) sets for several more years.

Considering the acute shortage to the Bell operating companies, it is doubtful that early-on  they would have been selling them to individuals or the Independents since they could not fulfill their own needs. The one exception that I am aware of  is government sales since I ended up with a large box of 1950/1951 500-sets from an army camp. 

It would be interesting if you were to ask them to provide with the bill of sale so as to establish providence for the set. If the set is indeed legitimate, such a document may add to its value.

A couple of other notes-

While handset cords on early 500-sets were fabric and straight, it was most likely replaced at some point. Coiled cords were not initially offered on these sets.  According to Bell Labs, there were problems with the compounds used in early neoprene cords since they would cause black marks when rubbing against the users clothing.

According to the number shown on the number card, this telephone was used in East Saint Louis, a Bell System operating company.
            
Also, the silver-gray line cord appears to be modular but perhaps (hopefully) it has spade-lugs instead.  It is difficult tell from the photos, are the feet fabric covered or neoprene?

Um... Early 500s had FABRIC cords?  I thought fabric cords were last to be used on 302s.  I thought the earliest 500s had straight, rubber-coated cords.  Is that not true?

Yes, Neoprene rubber.  They made a big deal about the new neoprene cords in the 500 announcements that I have seen.

Not according the Bell Labs introduction. Also some members on the TCI list have early 500-sets with factory installed fabric cords.

Ah, but see pages 85 and 86 of the attached.  It appears that the intent was to have neoprene.  

I was not yet born in 1949.  Actually, I came around in '51 so I am about as old as an early 500.  But, having been born at a very early age, I can't seem to remember seeing one with or without fabric cords.  

Knowing the Bell system, they could have changed their minds and put fabric cords in, but I have never seen a fabric cord made to fit the handle and cup combo of a G handset.  I've only seen them with the metal hooked stay.  Again, that doesn't mean the G handset fabric cords were never made.  I've learned never to say never.

See attachment, pp 85-86

There was never  any question as to there intention of using neoprene for the cords jacket. But as is stated the were still having problems with it smudging clothes right up to the introduction of the new 500-set.

Obviously they were have serious problems with getting the correct formulation of neoprene for handset cords but were finally able to get it right soon after the introduction of the 500-set.

Consequently some of the early sets used fabric cords. There are collectors on both the TCI and ATCA list that have early 500-sets with (straight) cloth cords.

By the way, I am well aware of this book since I have the original in my library along with others regarding the initial engineering and introduction of the 500-set. It's always interesting as to how after these scans have circulated after awhile that the credits are eventually deleted from the original file.

Well, I know I don't have all the answers.  Like everyone else, I read and report on what I have read and form the conclusions based on that.  You are providing new information, and it is much appreciated.

It would be interesting to see how the handle-side cord stay and the way the cord exits the handle. 

Quote from: G-Man on March 30, 2012, 07:13:06 PM
But in order to get things rolling, we are using the best material available."
Consequently some of the early sets used fabric cords.

I don't read that the same way you do.  When they said they are using the best material available at 500 set launch time, what I hear is "we'll use the best neoprene we can find and maybe it will smudge a little but we'll get that fixed really soon".

QuoteThere are collectors on both the TCI and ATCA list that have early 500-sets with (straight) cloth cords.

Doesn't mean they came out of Western Electric that way...  Those could have easily been local field modifications.

Quote from: G-Man on March 30, 2012, 07:13:06 PM
There are collectors on both the TCI and ATCA list that have early 500-sets with (straight) cloth cords.

I'm not doubting you.  But, are we sure these were 500's, and not 5302's?  Although 5302's also commonly had straight, neoprene handset cords, I can easily see an early 5302 with an F handset and a fabric cord attached.

Well Harry here's hoping that you hit the jackpot!  Who knows, maybe there is gold in them thar hills, you can be a true 49er then.

QuoteGood luck. I have a 49er  and was lucky to get it.

Whoa!  I'd love to see it!  Got any pics?

As for the cord debate, I've read that same report and interpret it as the cords were all to be neoprene and not fabric.  The fabric ones I've seen seem to be field modifications, but who knows.  It would be interesting indeed if they put fabric on 500s from day 1. 

My mom, age 82, upon seeing my 12/50 model 500 commented on the straight cord and how excited she was when they got their first coiled cord, "springy cord" as she called it.  That was late 50's.  I've got a straight cord on a 500 dated late 59', so they were still making them for a long time.

Quote from: McHeath on March 31, 2012, 01:00:06 AM
Well Harry here's hoping that you hit the jackpot!  Who knows, maybe there is gold in them thar hills, you can be a true 49er then.

QuoteGood luck. I have a 49er  and was lucky to get it.

Whoa!  I'd love to see it!  Got any pics?

As for the cord debate, I've read that same report and interpret it as the cords were all to be neoprene and not fabric.  The fabric ones I've seen seem to be field modifications, but who knows.  It would be interesting indeed if they put fabric on 500s from day 1. 

My mom, age 82, upon seeing my 12/50 model 500 commented on the straight cord and how excited she was when they got their first coiled cord, "springy cord" as she called it.  That was late 50's.  I've got a straight cord on a 500 dated late 59', so they were still making them for a long time.

First off, this collector is extremely knowledgeable about early 500-sets. In fact he contributed to a series of articles/papers regarding them. He definitely knows the difference between 5300 and 500 instruments. It is his and others opinion that the fabric cords were factory installed.

It certainly would not make any sense whatsoever for W.E. to manufacture cloth cords for G-handsets after-the-fact for field replacements.

Both he and others have performed serious research on the introduction of 500-sets. If someone else is equally as knowledgeable on this topic it would be interesting to hear the results of their research.

Apparently most do not know the history of modern coiled cords; I don't recall the exact date but it was a few years latter when Whitney-Blake introduced the Koiled Kord. IIRC, Kellogg (or vice-versa) bought the manufacturing rights and Automatic Electric, Stromberg Carlson AND, Western Electric initially sourced coiled cords from them. Prior to rubber jacketed coiled cords, cloth covered coiled cords for chief operator's headsets and telephone handsets were available but were not promoted since the coils did not hold their shape very well.

Further data includes:

Looking through our modest archives has brought about conflicting
production numbers for the 500A/B.

According to "Events in Telephone History", published by the AT&T Public
Relations Department in 1964, the following was entered for 1949:

"Some 600 new sets were put in service during 1949 to check performance,
convenient and light in weight," says the Annual Report for 1949. Talking
and hearing qualities were an improvement over previous sets, and the
loudness of the set automatically is adjusted to compensate for its
distance from the central office."

Entered for June 2, 1950:

"First supply of new 500-type handset telephones announced. About 180,000
were expected to come off production lines during the balance of the year.

However, another researcher, states:

"The first production run of the new 500 set was made in November 1949, and
consisted of 4,000 units in predictable black. (Some of these early sets
were equipped with cloth cords)."

It would be helpful if you quote your sources.

Like I said, I wasn't doubting you, just throwing out all the possibilities.

OK. So, here's what I want to know.  If there were early 500s equipped with cloth cords, what did the cords look like?

1.  Did they have 4 conductors (like 500 set cords) or 3 conductors (like 302 set cords)?

2.  Were the receiver wires longer than the transmitter wires and extend themselves through the handset (like 500 set cords) or were the receiver wires short and need to be extended with additional wire parts (like 302 set cords)?

3.  What did the cord's handset-end strain relief look like?  Was it neoprene so that it would seat into the strain relief holder in the G handed cup?  Did it work some other way?

I find it difficult to believe that either (a) there was a different G handset for these cloth cords that had a different strain relief arrangement or (b) these cloth cords were installed on G handsets by Western Electric with no strain relief at all.

So, anybody know?  I'd LOVE to see a pic.

Quote from: paul-f on March 31, 2012, 08:23:10 AM
It would be helpful if you quote your sources.

I thought that G-Man was referring to McHeath. He quoted McHeath and then followed with:

First off, this collector is extremely knowledgeable
In fact he contributed to a series of articles/papers
He definitely knows the difference between 5300 and 500 instruments.
It is his and others opinion that the fabric cords were factory installed.

Am I misreading G-Man's post? If so I will go back and remove that quote from his post. Maybe it is as we discussed recently that many people automatically hit the "quote" button (since it is right there on each post) rather than using the "reply" button which is down at the bottom of the most recent post. There is no point in "quoting" the immediately preceeding post unless quoting just a couple of the words to make it obvious exactly what your reply is referring to.

Terry

G-Man, help us out here.  You said:

Quote from: G-Man on March 31, 2012, 04:20:24 AM

First off, this collector is extremely knowledgeable about early 500-sets. In fact he contributed to a series of articles/papers regarding them.

Please remind us where to find the information.  If you don't feel comfortable in divulging "his" name, then please point to the research so we can see.  I don't think anyone wants to dispute this for the sake of disputing.  We are all wanting to get the story straight.

Thanks.

Quote from: G-Man on March 31, 2012, 04:20:24 AM

However, another researcher, states:

"The first production run of the new 500 set was made in November 1949, and
consisted of 4,000 units in predictable black. (Some of these early sets
were equipped with cloth cords)."[/i]

Who is the other researcher?

It looks like material we already reviewed from the BSTJ (4/51).

Also, I have previously stated that I believe the entry in Events in Telecommunications History only relates to ONE of the field trial cities.  Events was originally published by the PR department, using press releases as the primary info source.  I personally saw a release for local publication in St. Louis describing the 600 telephones that were to be on trial there.

I've summarized most of our previous discussion for those who don't want to read the entire thread - Now the Story Can be Told.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2394.0

The summary is here - and lists sources:
  http://www.paul-f.com/we500_Early.html

New sources and info are always welcome.  I'm sure there's a lot more to be learned.

Good work on that summary Paul. A good reference.

Terry

I love the summary too, Paul.  Great work.

So interesting to read all of this telephone history!

Hope it's a '49!

Quote from: McHeath on March 31, 2012, 01:00:06 AM
Whoa!  I'd love to see it!  Got any pics?

Search for the "got a 49er" thread and you can see mine

Just got a call from my wife saying a package arrived! She also said "What? Is this another phone?"
Must be the "1949" 500, can't wait to get home & open it up! Will report back later.

Nope! Not even close to a 49'er. Clearly stamped 4-63! I will be returning this to the seller.
Figured it was too good to be true :'(

Bummer - only off by 14 years! :(

I hate when that happens.  Is the "4-63" stamped on the bottom in the usual place?  If so, why would the seller state that nothing was stamped on the bottom?  I often ask sellers to tell me everything that is stamped on the bottom.

Larry

Yes, clearly stamped in the usual place. I don't know why he said nothing was there but I asked him that. I will be returning it for "not as described". Already sent a message to the seller, awaiting his reply.

Perhaps he meant that there was no "49" stamped on the bottom.

Larry

What I think happens is a lot of sellers do a "little" bit of investigating about these Model 500's before they list them for sale.  Somewhere they find the origin to be 1949.  So they list it as a 1949 telephone.