"Rare" pekin red 302 from 1940

[Doug Rose]

Normally I would say that cracks would be something I would avoid buying on a phone that is common.  But an original colored 302 from 1940 even with cracks would be a rare phone to own.....not that I'm planning on being the owner of this one.  To rephrase---a rare phone with cracks is better than no rare phone....until a nicer one comes along.

I have communicated with this seller in the past on an unrelated item.  He seems very knowledgeable and was extremely friendly during our email exchanges.

Dennis...do you think the pictures skirt the issue of the cracks? The condition of the phone? I see cracks all over the inside, but I do not see one clear shot of any corners on the outside. I am told there is a repair, but i don't see it from where it matters, the outside. The one picture of the phone straight on is from a high angle. The phone is an early Pekin Red 302, but it that rare? Put it next to one from the 50s and I wouldn't know the difference. I think the pictures are deceptive. I think a buyer should know exactly what he or she is getting and not have to hope its good because its "allegedly" rare.  Just my two cents. I am a seller and I would expect major trouble if I posted an auction like this.....Doug

[Dennis Markham]

Doug, you make some good points.  I think on an items that are known to be of interest to experienced, knowledgeable collectors who are going to scrutinize the item closely, one must point out the good with the bad.  Often what ISN'T said (or shown) is as important as what IS said or shown.  It looks to me after seeing the photo that Dan provided of the inside that the repair was made to the front right corner.  One can see a build up of material on that corner on the inside.  I lightened the eBay photo of that corner and will post it below.  And of course there are other imperfections.  The black plungers are something that keeps nagging at me.  I know that's not a big deal but since they were supposed to have clear plungers it MIGHT indicate a cobbled together telephone.  So to answer your question Doug, yes, I do think the pictures skirt the issue of the cracks.  Some call them "stress" cracks.  Those seen below may not be visible on top.

With my initial posting on this I wasn't defending or endorsing this phone in any way.  I meant like in the case with several of the more collectible phones I own, the only way I can afford to have one is to have one with some type of flaw, like the repaired crack on my Old Rose 302.  I was able to own one because of the lesser cost due to the damage.  But sitting on my shelf it looks pretty good....until I stumble on a perfect one at a flea market for $5 (wishful thinking).

So those imperfections coming to light here bring up the question.....is it rare enough to have a great value despite those imperfections?  It certainly cannot be equal to one of similar vintage that has less flaws.  And those flaws should be pointed out by the seller.  Since you asked my opinion........there it is.

[Doug Rose]

Dennis....I hope you didn't take this as an affront to you.  I just don't think the pictures quantify bidding on the phone. Too many cracks or stress cracks left to the imagination. As Mod Rod said, "every picture tells a story, don't it?"....sorry if I came on too strong, definitely not intended at you....Doug

[Dennis Markham]

You didn't affront me at all, Doug.  Sometimes with the written word things can be read differently than what was intended.  No problem here.

[baldopeacock]

The black plungers are something that keeps nagging at me.  I know that's not a big deal but since they were supposed to have clear plungers it MIGHT indicate a cobbled together telephone.  

Dennis, re: the black plungers vs. clear --

My friend ETS79, who's posted here awhile back, has a '41 Ivory 302 that's date correct throughout.   It definitely was not a cobble job and didn't look like it had ever seen the refurb shop - it was a crusty mess when he got it.   The plungers on that phone aren't clear, they are ivory - same as the phone case and handset.   On that phone the cup in the handhold area is also metal, painted to match.   I inserted ETS's pic of that phone here, from an earlier post.

I sure don't claim to know the history of these phones to the same degree as most of you, but I think I've seen another one or two pre-war color 302s with body-color plungers.   What that may mean - or not mean - re: the black plungers in the current eBay phone... duh, I dunno.



Some of you may recall that ETS won the wounded blue 302 on eBay a few months ago and was chronicling his restoration work.   I was in Illinois last week, stopped by to see him and some other friends, and saw the phone Friday night - he's getting very close to completing it.   The corners look perfect to me, there is no visible sign that the corners were ever cracked from the outside.   He did have a new crack appear farther up the side of the case while working on it, which discouraged him (to put it mildly) and that's why he hasn't been posting, he's ticked off at himself.   His own worst critic.    Really, all that remains to complete that blue 302 is the final polish.

[Doug Rose]

D/P....you would rather have this phone Lucy is talking on!.....Doug

[Dan/Panther]

Wonder if that photo was taken at the 1939 worlds fair ?

Yes Doug, I would love that clear 302, paint it up Peking Red and there you go.
D/P

[Jim Stettler]

D/P....you would rather have this phone Lucy is talking on!.....Doug

I would.

D/P my understanding is yes.  I suspect there was a lot of film footage from various celebraties talking on the "voice mirror" at the fair. They had the voice mirror at bopth San Fransisco and New York.

There was a seperate (clear) listen-in receiver (aka Mother-in-law) attatched to each phone. This were shaped like a half sphere. If anyone has a spare, I would be interested.


Jim

[Dan/Panther]

Is the half sphere you speak of located right of the support ?
Was the "voice mirror" a television link between Frisco and New York ?
D/P

[Jim Stettler]

Is the half sphere you speak of located right of the support ?
Was the "voice mirror" a television link between Frisco and New York ?
D/P

D/P yes it is. I never noticed it in the Lucy photo. I have seen it in a different photo.

The "Voice mirror" just recorded your voice and played it back. (remember the first time you heard your recorded voice?)


The used the clear sets to help simulate interest. The listen-in was so they could get more people involved in the Demo.

ISTR that they  used the voice mirror for some other large city expo's, but I don't know if they used clear sets. I think the other expo's were before the worlds fair.


Jim


Side note: If you reserach the 1948-1950 fairs and expo's, you may be able to find some more photo's of early 500 sets.
Just a Thought

[Doug Rose]

It did not meet reserve at $358. Interesting phone with the old 5H finger wheel. I think its the real deal, just done in by pictures not telling the whole story.....Doug

[HarrySmith]

It's baaaack!

160451507822

[McHeath]

No reserve this time.

[Dan/Panther]

I'm skeptical about the sellers intentions now. I requested and he sent me a photo of the underside of the phones shell. He relisted the phone but didn't add the photo. He said he would have added the photo to the auction but couldn't after bids had been submitted.
D/P

[Doug Rose]

Seller sent me two pictures of the cracks. Definitely not as bad as I thought. There is a good reflection on the corner crack, but if you look at his original pic, this is not bad at all. If you don't have a red 302, this is a really nice one....Doug