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Is This a 201C-3F WECo "Space Saver" Set?

Started by rp2813, October 08, 2015, 04:11:54 PM

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rp2813

From what I've seen here, the pictured set would have originally been outfitted with an E1 handset.

I've also read here that the earlier type dial mounts offer limited positioning compared to the later ones.

I'm looking for a WECo "space saver" type set for my workshop and have seen them selling for a wide range of winning bids.  Most I've seen don't have mounting cords.  I don't care much about the vintage, and would actually prefer one compatible with a G or "GF" (or is it FG?) series handset, but price and viability are more important.

What would be a reasonable price for a complete rig like the one pictured, including 684 subset?

Are mounting options more limited on this type as opposed to later ones? 

Thanks for any advice.
Ralph

unbeldi

#1
Yes, this is a Type C handset mounting which was used either for a 101 (sidetone) or 201 (anti-sidetone) type telephone until ca. 1936. Indeed, the F handset doesn't fit the switch hook cradle on this phone comfortably.  It should have an E handset.

When the F handset was introduced, WECo replaced the C handset mounting with the G-type.  The model numbers for telephones made with G handset mountings were designated as 211, 212, 213, 214.

The G-type handset replaced the F handset on the G-handset mountings sometime between 1957 and 1963, because the 1957 Graybar catalog still shows them with an F handset, and I also have a chrome version dated 63, IIRC.  At about the same time, the cradle was switched from black paint to shiny chrome.  To me, the chrome cradle is just a tiny bit narrower, when comparing fit, but I haven't actually measured them.

These units didn't really have a formal "mounting cord", it was typically connected with inside-wiring, or station wire, perhaps run invisibly through a conduit or inside the wall.

Prices indeed vary, like most phones,  be sure you get one with the mounting bracket right away, otherwise you will hunt for one for a while while not having a way to mount the unit and enjoy it.

poplar1

#2
The 201C-3F pictured has an extra (optional) spacer between the 39A dial mount and the C-1 mounting. This allows additional positions for rotating the dial mount. However, with both the 39A dial mount, and the 41A -- which is found on early 211s (G-mounting) --, the ANGLE of the dial cannot be changed. It would probably go for around $60 with F1, + $50 for the subset.

For more flexibility in the angle of the dial, look for a G-mounting with a 43A dial mount. The ones with chrome cradles are designed for G-1 or G-3 handsets. (Apparently, Northern Electric never produced the later cradles designed for G-type handsets.)

With a 684A subset, and a G1 or G3 handset, there may be too much sidetone. However, a 684A used  with a GF handset (which has the same elements as an F1 handset) would be OK.

With any luck, you can find a 211 or 212 with G1 or G3 handset + 685A subset for around $65 total.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

#3
(1st and 2nd photo) 211C-3F (G1 handset mounting with 41A dial mount and F1A handset)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Vintage-Antique-Spacesaver-Telehphone-Western-Electric-41A-G1-and-AE-Phones-/171912359938

(3 and 4) 211C-3F (G1 handset mounting with 43A dial mount and F1A handset)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-Bell-System-Western-Electric-F-1-43A-G1-Space-Saver-Telephone/381395559676

(5) 211L  (G6 handset mounting with 43A dial mount and G-type handset) + 685A subset
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-SPACE-SAVER-TELEPHONE-PHONE-G6-685-A-ringer-G1-Handset-/271968949426
(BSP C38.343, Issue 1, August, 1957 in TCI Library)

BSP for 211L can be found in TCI library (G6 mounting, G1A handset):
http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3716-c38-343-i1-211j-211l-with-network-type-subsets-connections
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

rp2813

Wow -- thanks for all of the excellent and easy to understand information!

The subject 201 is priced a little high (it's on my local CL) so I'll probably pass on it.  I'm guessing that later types with a G handset are the most affordable, and that's what I'd prefer anyway.  I'll keep an eye out for others.  There are a couple of incomplete (no subset) G-mounts I'm watching just to get a feel for the market in what I hope is my price range.

If I need to come up with my own subset, I have spare 302 and 500 sets that can serve the purpose until I find a 684 or 685.

I anticipate the need to sometimes cradle the handset while using this particular phone, so that is why I'd prefer to use a GF/G1/G3 instead of an F or E type.
Ralph

rp2813

#5
I won this 201A for $10.99 + shipping.  It seemed like a good enough deal, and I already had an F1 handset & cord to use with it.

The old fashioned look of the handset cradle has grown on me, and after looking at some pictures, it doesn't appear that the F1 hangs at much of a different angle than an E1.  Just for fun, I hung a G1 on it and it ended up at a major angle -- definitely not compatible with a 201 cradle.

I'm satisfied with the current rig shown below.  It was the subject of another thread regarding the proper wiring scheme with a 684/101A subset.

The first picture is from the ebay ad.

Ralph

persido

Hi rp2813, a few years back I found the same phone with the E1 handset at a local flea market, the link is below.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9922.msg105594#msg105594

Scot

rp2813

Scot, That's a very nice 201A you scored, and at a great price!

I was watching some other "space saver" listings and noticed that while some with dials didn't sell, a 201A that had an E1 handset went for considerably more than the asking price of those with dials.  It seems people are primarily after the E1 portion of the set.  Even in the classifieds here on the forum, virtually all the listings containing the term "E1" are under the "Wanted" heading.

If I had a spare E1, I'd be using it with my 201A because compared to the F1s, I find the E1s are a little easier to cradle in order to keep both hands free.  The upside of an F1 is that the HA1 receiver element is IMO an improvement over the 557.
Ralph