W.E. 302 not Dialing Out, ( Resolved )

[caz3057]

I have a W.E. 302 dated 1951, all matching parts except for the 6a dial dated at 1962. I had it working initially after replacing handset/main cord sets and rewiring to get dial tone, ringer etc. It worked fine for 6 months or so and then I went to use it one day and it would not dial out. Dial tone breaks when turning finger wheel and has the correct number of contact breaks for the number selected. After much research on this forum I compared the dial return speed to a 1950 302 with a 5H dial that works fine, the 6A was about 2 numbers slower on return speed. Also compared to some of my N.E. 500 phones and dial speed on the 6A was slower also. In looking at the Bell Dial Chart the 5H and 6A are suppose to be the same speed range regarding Pulses Per Second. Thinking I had found the problem I took the dial out, disassembled and cleaned and lubricated it. No change on return speed. Suspecting maybe the return spring was weak I put 3 turns on the return spring. No change so I tried to put 4 turns on the return spring and that causes coil bind preventing full rotation of the finger wheel. So 3 is the max I can get on the spring. Tried applying pressure to the finger wheel to increase return speed and no real change was evident. The governor seems to be very effective at limiting return speed. Tried repositioning the cam slightly more in a clockwise position and all that did was generate a loud click in the earpiece upon finger wheel return to rest. I did notice that there was no brass washer underneath the cam and on top of the pawl. Checked contacts with ohm meter and they all checked fine. I did go ahead and clean the contacts very lightly with 800 grit sandpaper while I have everything apart. Not really sure where to go from here so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[unbeldi]

Welcome!

The dial speed has to be adjusted so that the dial produces nominally 10 pulses per second (pps).  In practice that meant that a dial was allowed to vary between 8 and 11 pps, and when adjusted by a technician should be accurate between 9.5 and 10.5 pps.
Over time the dials do get slower because the friction pads inside the governor wear down slightly.
The dials before the No. 6 dial were adjustable, while the No. 6 dials could no longer be adjusted; they figured they might as well swap them out for a new dial.

The dial speed is determined by the governor, i.e. that extra little round device with the fly wheel regulator inside. Although the main spring has some effect when it is really loose, it is the governor, which rotates the fastest, that determines the speed and keeps it constant during the return rotation.

This doesn't explain why your dial suddenly failed, we would have to examine the governor very carefully. Attempting to repair it requires having spare parts, so it is best left to those who do this regularly.

Treating dial contacts with sandpaper was a very bad move. They must never be treated that way, as the contact surface is coated with precious metals against corrosion, and most likely you have destroyed that protective layer.  Eventually corrosion will set in and the contact will fail.

The alternative to sending the dial for repair is to buy another one. 6A dials can often be purchased separately on eBay for perhaps $20 or less.  They are plentiful.

[caz3057]

Thank you very much for your response to my request for feedback. Yes, I very much understand the silver plating/material on these contacts is thin and delicate. this basically was a last ditch effort to insure it was not a contact issue based on position of contacts when installed in the dial. When I say I cleaned contact surfaces with 800 grit paper I do mean I gave them 1 stroke on the abrasive side of the paper just to make sure there was no hard oxidation already on them. I will never do that again as you have advised. It still seems like a PPS issue to me as I said the dial returns slower than it should. But I am puzzled as to why the governor would run slow with only a very minor amount of wear on the friction pads. They really don't exhibit any appreciable loss of material to speak of. I do believe that the dial/governor was most likely borderline speed wise when I first got this phone and had it working. Since the gear mounting assembly is staked together it would seem difficult to replace the wear pads on the flyweights. I can do things like this but finding parts to utilize in this repair appears to be a real challenge. I will look around on EBay to see if I can find another 5H or 6A dial but initial search's have not yielded many cost effective options. As a machinist/maintenance repair tech I do have extensive skill capabilities in these areas and have no concerns about addressing problems of this nature provided parts can be found. Once again, Thank You for responding and I will update progress on the repair of this phone as advances are made. BTW I have 2 302's 1, 1950, 1, 1951, 3, N.E. 500's 1968-1978, a 1984 Princess TT and 1 ITT 500 wall phone from 1973. All required repair/cleaning/rewiring and work fine. The 1951 302 is the only one I'm currently having any issues with.

[Babybearjs]

I was having the same issue with one of my 464's.... Its used outside and was not dialing out right so I lubricated it. A lot of my phones are in storage in my shed so over time the dials seem to freeze up a bit and have to be brought in to a warmer temperature and tested. but, I would first lub it and then go to the next step of adjusting it if need be.

[unbeldi]

The recommended procedure for cleaning the contacts is to pull clean paper or card stock through the close contact, this provides just enough friction for removing excessive oxidation.  Western Electric even stocked special paper strips for this purpose.

Dial speed problems are a constant collectors' complaint it seems.  I also think that many devices, network adapters, ATAs, etc. don't adhere to the same margins as traditional land lines, and even the FIOS line I do have available seems narrower, but I haven't measured it precisely.  On the other hand I recall measuring a VoIP ATA that worked all the way down to 4 pps or so, which was the limit of my test set.

[caz3057]

That has always been my first step, clean with copy paper soaked with electronic cleaner and then dry paper to finish. Like I said I think this is a PPS issue relating to slow dial return speed. I have played around with gear mesh adjustments in an effort to optimize return/PPS speeds and have it set at the fastest smoothest adjustment possible. I'm still very curious about your thoughts that minor wear on the pads in the governor would cause slow dial/PPS return speeds.

[andre_janew]

Sounds to me like the pads become less slippery when worn.

[HarrySmith]

Dial gears look very dry. Have you cleaned & oiled the dial? There are detailed instructions on this somewhere here.

[unbeldi]

That has always been my first step, clean with copy paper soaked with electronic cleaner and then dry paper to finish. Like I said I think this is a PPS issue relating to slow dial return speed. I have played around with gear mesh adjustments in an effort to optimize return/PPS speeds and have it set at the fastest smoothest adjustment possible. I'm still very curious about your thoughts that minor wear on the pads in the governor would cause slow dial/PPS return speeds.

Well, the historical prototype of this type of governor doesn't use friction at all actually.  The weights in the governor could achieve the desired effect by themselves if permitted to fly out far enough. They are held in by the spring though and the tension of that spring determines how far they fly out.  This was employed first in the centrifugal governors on steam engines.  The design in these dials is probably a delicate balance of both effects, centrifugal motion and brake effect. When the break pads wear down far enough the weights should be able to fly out more, and therefore slow the rotational speed down more, and therefore the dial gets slower over time.

Have you examined the break pads under magnification with a loupe to see if the rubber had broken apart after your cleaning as a result of it perhaps?

[Jack Ryan]

If anyone is interested, there is an article about the WE governor in BLR, Feb, 1954, page 69.

AE's governor of that type appears not to have had a cup.

Jack

[caz3057]

Thank you all very much for your input. I will address responses in the order that they were received. The gear teeth and shaft pivot points are well oiled with L.E. 7500 and excess lube removed with a Q-tip, dry is not an issue. I have used this light weight oil for 3 decades with great results on watches and instruments of a delicate nature. The wear pads on the flyweights of the governor appear to be in very good shape with minimal wear and have sufficient clearance when the finger wheel is a rest. What bothers me is that when I apply light additional pressure to the finger wheel to increase dial return speed it dose not seem to make any real difference in return speed/PPS.

[Phonesrfun]

Dial tone breaks when turning finger wheel......

When you say dial tone breaks do you mean that the dial tone is silenced when turning the wheel, only to give dial tone back when the wheel returns or do you mean that the dial tone goes away completely when the dial finger wheel returns?  You said that the dial does not dial out, but you did not say if it dialed wrong numbers.  Many times a slow dial will dial numbers, but just not the right numbers.

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if something else within the phone such as a wire touching another wire could actually be effectively shorting the wires connected to the pulsing contacts of the dial and preventing the phone from dialing out.  You did say at the beginning that you did some rewiring.  Even the most experienced of us have tightened a screw terminal on a spade tip and had the spade move with the screw as it is being tightened only to have it rotate over to and touch an adjoining terminal.  I know you said that it was working fine for 6 months and suddenly stopped working, but there must e something that caused it to suddenly stop.  After all, if the dial is slow now, it must have been slow 6 months ago too.  1962.... A 54-year old dial won't suddenly slow down over night. 

Another possibility...If you have some sort of Internet or fiber phone service provider, did you recently change ATA's?  Maybe a switch in ATA's could have been to a less tolerant device.  An ATA is the router that goes between your phone and your Internet modem.

[caz3057]

Woohoo, Problem solved and phone works great now. I figured there was not much to lose at this point so I shot some "Jigaloo" silicone spray on the wear/brake pads of the governor and the increase of dial return speed/PPS was incredible. It dials out fine now and the finger wheel return speed is the same as the dials of the other phones I compared it to . Apparently the wear/brake pads for this 6A dial were just a little to grippy and the silicone slicked things up enough to get it back into the proper PPS range. I say that because I know the pivot shafts were well lubed and very free so it must have been a governor flyweight issue related to wear/brake pads. Thank you all again for your responses that got me to thinking about root causes of the issue at hand and potential solutions. Best Regards

[unbeldi]

Woohoo, Problem solved and phone works great now. I figured there was not much to lose at this point so I shot some "Jigaloo" silicone spray on the wear/brake pads of the governor and the increase of dial return speed/PPS was incredible. It dials out fine now and the finger wheel return speed is the same as the dials of the other phones I compared it to . Apparently the wear/brake pads for this 6A dial were just a little to grippy and the silicone slicked things up enough to get it back into the proper PPS range. I say that because I know the pivot shafts were well lubed and very free so it must have been a governor flyweight issue related to wear/brake pads. Thank you all again for your responses that got me to thinking about root causes of the issue at hand and potential solutions. Best Regards

That is interesting.  Despite all the warnings about not lubricating the inside of the governor drum, some people preach it like gospel, I was about to suggest the very thing. In a No. 6 dial it is about the only action one can perform.  When needed, I always clean my dials in an ultrasonic cleaner, and sometimes I have been impatient with drying it and mounted it immediately to test for speed. Not always, but a few times, I noticed that dial speed slowed down after a while, while it seemed great immediately.

I doubt that I would have used any silicone-based lube, as you report. But in any case, as you stated, you had essentially only to gain, not lose.

[unbeldi]

If anyone is interested, there is an article about the WE governor in BLR, Feb, 1954, page 69.

AE's governor of that type appears not to have had a cup.

Jack

Thanks, Jack.  Despite having the article at hand, I wasn't aware of it.  Perhaps not anymore aware of it.

An interesting aspect comes up again, and that is the question when was the No. 6 dial actually conceived. The dial was publicized in 1952, two years before this article, and at least four years after the No. 7 dials were field tested.  Why did they skip the number 6 for the development of the 500-set?  Or did they already have the successor of the No. 5 dial in mind at the time?

Curiously, this article strictly compares the No. 5 dial with the No. 7 dial, and not once hints at the existence of No. 6, despite quoting other interesting historical information.

Attached is a copy for those interested.