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Hello! And some questions to get me started.

Started by PEnnsylvania 6-5000, November 15, 2011, 01:02:01 AM

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PEnnsylvania 6-5000

Hello, all!

I am new to the forum, and to phone collecting and restoration, and as such, I am full of newbie questions. I've read several posts on W.E. 102s and 202s, and learned a lot from those posts, and I still have a lot of reading to do. In the meantime, though, I hope you will indulge me with some questions to get me started and occupied while I read more.

As I mentioned in my first post about subsets, I recently purchased a W.E. D1, 202, with E1 handset and F1 transmitter. It didn't have a subset, and now, thanks to Dennis and Bill, I am on the right path to finding one. However, before I begin other modifications, I was hoping you could point me in the right direction on a few things. Please forgive me if the answers to some of my questions are painfully obvious, or if my questions are stupid.

The markings on my phone are as follows:

The outside, back of the oval base is stamped with D1, and the inside is stamped in red ink with I 35
The back of the dial is stamped in red ink with 4H on one side, and II 35 on the other.
The transmitter is stamped in red ink with F1 2/38

Am I correct in thinking that 35 and 38 on the base, dial, and transmitter refer to the years they were manufactured? Am I also correct in thinking that the 4H is the dial type?

My phone came with a black, rubber handset cord, which I assume is a replacement cord. Did the W.E. D1, 202 originally come from the factory with cloth cords?

My E1 handset has seams on it, which, I read somewhere, was indicative of it being manufactured after 1937, or perhaps 1939. Is that correct?

Also, when tight to the handset, the spit cup on my E1 does not align symmetrically with the rest of the handset. If you are looking at the handset from the bottom, it is turned slightly (about 5-6 degrees) to the left. Is that the way it is supposed to be?

The fingerwheel on my dial does not sit parallel to the dial plate. As it travels around the dial plate, one side remains higher than the other. When viewed from the side, I looks something like a warped record would look like spinning on a turntable. Is that the way it is supposed to be?

I noticed some dial plates have letters on them and some don't. If my dial is indeed a 4H, do you know if it originally came with a dial plate that had letters on it?

I see that there are black, chrome, and brass dial card rings available to purchase. My phone came with a black one, but I am curious about what a stock phone would have had on it. When the phone came from the factory, would it have had a black, chrome, or brass dial card ring? Or could it have come with any one of the three?

Right now, I am mainly interested in W.E. 102, 202, and 302 phones. Are there decent books out there that you would recommend to answer the majority of my neophyte questions, including what special tools I may need?

Thank you!

Edit.

I'm sorry; I meant to close with my name, which is Jay.

Thanks again.

ESalter

Welcome Jay!

I'm not the expert on that era of phones by any means, I'm sure someone else here can chime in with more info than me.  I 35 is 2nd quarter of 1935, I believe, so your assessment of the date stamps is correct.  In the 30s they would have come with cloth cords.  The spitcup on the E1 handsets can be adjusted by changing the bakelite sleeve just under the spitcup.  A lot of times they're incredibly tight and take some tools and a hair dryer to get broken loose.  I'm not sure about your fingerwheel, that doesn't sound right to me.  I'd try to take the dial apart a little ways and see if anything seems out of line.  All of the dials were available with standard and rural dial plates, so either type of number ring could be correct based on what type of service the phone was in.  If you remove the number card holder and fingerwheel, you should see the date on the number ring.  To my knowledge all of the number card holders from that era were black except on special painted phones.

All that being said, have a lot of fun and don't ever hesitate to ask if you need anything, you'll find the forum here is a really great community.  Also, post a picture or two of your 202, we'd all love to see it!

---Eric

PEnnsylvania 6-5000

Thank you for your kind welcome, Eric. And thank you for the information! I appreciate it!

Jay

Phonesrfun

I can give you lots of your answers, but I am on my way out the door to a meeting tonight.

Most of what you are assuming is correct, as to dates and so forth.  Not normal for a fingerwheel to be "warped", and is easy to straighten, but needs to be taken off the dial first.

The alignment of the spitcup on the E1 is a matter of loosening the middle bakelite tightening ring and adjusting both it and the position of the spitcup around the transmitter housing, both at the same time.  sometimes those rings get stuck and are a bear to loosen.

I need to go, so I can give more information a little later tonight.
-Bill G

Phonesrfun

Quote from: PEnnsylvania 8-5000 on November 15, 2011, 01:02:01 AM

Please forgive me if the answers to some of my questions are painfully obvious, or if my questions are stupid.

Jay:

No question should be considered stupid.  Some questions get asked more than others, but that's how everyone learns.

Quote
The markings on my phone are as follows:

The outside, back of the oval base is stamped with D1, and the inside is stamped in red ink with I 35
The back of the dial is stamped in red ink with 4H on one side, and II 35 on the other.
The transmitter is stamped in red ink with F1 2/38

Am I correct in thinking that 35 and 38 on the base, dial, and transmitter refer to the years they were manufactured? Am I also correct in thinking that the 4H is the dial type?

Yes.    

Western Electric was really great about dating almost every assembled part in the phones they made, right up to the end.  Other manufacturers were not nearly so good.  Earlier WE date codes were the quarter of the year, expressed in roman numerals, followed by the two digit year II 35 means 2nd quarter of 1935.  It has a #4 dial which is a 4H meaning that the switch configuration is for a handset phone like a 102 or 202, and not for a candlestick phone, which also could have a #4 dial too.  The transmitter that was 2/38 means it was made in February of 1938.  When the first part of the date was an actual number, rather han a Roman numeral, that is the actual month of manufacture.  The D1 embossed in the neck is the model of the deskstand,  in this case the elliptical base that is often referred to as a 202, but is more accurately referred to as a D1

QuoteMy phone came with a black, rubber handset cord, which I assume is a replacement cord. Did the W.E. D1, 202 originally come from the factory with cloth cords?

Yes. Neoprene rubber was used on later phones and on replacement cords.  Original cords would have been all fabric covered.  Cords are the most often replaced parts of old phones in the field.  In this case, the cord was pretty likely replaced, I would say in the 1950's.  Take a look at the metal cord stay on the end that goes in the phone.  There is likely a date code embossed in it.  Those dates on the cords are awfully hard to make out.

QuoteMy E1 handset has seams on it, which, I read somewhere, was indicative of it being manufactured after 1937, or perhaps 1939. Is that correct?

I believe 1936 or 1937 would be closer to the beginning of the seamed handles than 1939.  While the F1 handset came into being around 1937/1938, the E1's probably continued to be made for a while, but I don't know how long.

QuoteAlso, when tight to the handset, the spit cup on my E1 does not align symmetrically with the rest of the handset. If you are looking at the handset from the bottom, it is turned slightly (about 5-6 degrees) to the left. Is that the way it is supposed to be?

Nope.  The center tightening ring is separate from the spitcup and the two tighten against each other.  The ring can get stuck, and they can be kind of nasty to get apart.  They have standard-direction threads.  A small strap wrench can be helpful in un-sticking the stubborn things, and there have been many other threads on this forum dedicated just to sticky transmitter caps and spitcups.  Aside from a strap wrench, the Bell system used to have a tool that had two points that went into the two holes on either side of the tightening ring to aid in loosening it.  When you get it loose, don't tighten it with a tool!  Only tighten softly by hand, or you'll get it stuck again!

QuoteThe fingerwheel on my dial does not sit parallel to the dial plate. As it travels around the dial plate, one side remains higher than the other. When viewed from the side, I looks something like a warped record would look like spinning on a turntable. Is that the way it is supposed to be?

Nope.  Fingerwheels are meant to be flat.  You can take the number card retaining ring off and expose a brass nut that you can use to remove the fingerwheel.  Generally, you want to flatten it without marring the paint.  You can put the fingerwheel in between a couple of pieces of flat wwood and hammer it flat.  If that doesn't work, fingerwheels come up on e-bay all the time.  Or, you can just let it be warped.  Unless it is so bad that it rubs on something else, it won't hurt anything.

QuoteI noticed some dial plates have letters on them and some don't. If my dial is indeed a 4H, do you know if it originally came with a dial plate that had letters on it?

They originally came with both.  The dial plates with letters were called metropolitan dials and were in cities that had exchanges with names, like MUrdock, CApitol, or PEnnsylvania.  Numbers only were in rural locations.  Eventually, the rural locations also adopted named exchanges and then everyone had letters on the dial.  All the #2's, 4's and probably the 5's and maybe even 6's could have either.  I have even seen some 500 phones with numbers only.

QuoteI see that there are black, chrome, and brass dial card rings available to purchase. My phone came with a black one, but I am curious about what a stock phone would have had on it. When the phone came from the factory, would it have had a black, chrome, or brass dial card ring? Or could it have come with any one of the three?

Western Electric primarily or maybe exclusively used painted black, and maybe nickel.  Automatic Electric used both black and chrome.  AE was more into the chrome than WE was into nickel.  Just my opinion and observations.  Some others might have different observations.  Bare brass was never used as a color.  Many parts were made from brass and either plated with nickel or painted black.  Brass was thought to be cheap and unattractive at the time.  If you ever see a brass candlestick phone on e-bay, it will be one that someone has stripped the paint off and is not the original finish.


QuoteRight now, I am mainly interested in W.E. 102, 202, and 302 phones. Are there decent books out there that you would recommend to answer the majority of my neophyte questions, including what special tools I may need?

There are several, but one in particular is Lawrence A Wolff, D.D.S's book titled Desk Telephones of the Bell System, the years 1875 to 1955, Second edition.

-Bill G

AE_Collector

Hey Pennsylvania:

Welcome to the Rotary Phone Forum!

What is PEnnsylvania 8-5000 the phone number of?  I know that PEnnsylvania 6-5000 is the phone number of the PEnnsylvania Hotel in New York city and of course Pennsylvania 6-5000 is a song made famous by Glenn Miller and his Orchestra.

Terry

Phonesrfun

Jay:

If you were trying for the famous Glenn Miller number and missed it on one of the digits, you can probably ask Dennis Markham, the forum administrator to change your ID and still keep the history.
-Bill G

Dennis Markham

Yes, I can change your user name if you'd like.  Just let me know in a PM, Jay.

~Dennis

PEnnsylvania 6-5000

Thank you so much, Bill! I'm beginning to sense that you are one of the W.E. gurus around here – if not the guru!

I'm going to look up the posts about sticky transmitter caps and spitcups tonight.

The book will have to wait a while though. The only copy I found in the wild is a used (which doesn't bother me) paperback (I'd like to find a hardcover, if possible) for $110.00 (a tad pricey for a paperback) plus shipping. Of course, that may be a bargain, and I just don't know it.

I found some cloth cords on OPW that I am thinking about purchasing, but the description doesn't indicate if the mount cord is a four-conductor, and I can't tell from the picture. It sort of looks like it is; I think I see four colors, but the picture is too low of a resolution to see if there are four spades there. I'll have to call and find out. For some reason, the OPW site will not let me post a question to them.

I also noticed that the OPW mount cord has an RJ11 mod plug on one end. If I'm going from the phone to the subset, I'll need spades on both ends, wouldn't I?

On another post, I saw that OPW was one, if not the only, place to get cloth cords. Do you know of any other places, or should I buy them at OPW, cut the mod plug and add spades?

It also looks like OPW also has the W.E. handset tools, so I think I'll get one of those too. I'll have to go to Lowe's or Home Depot for the strap wrench. I tried to loosen it by hand, and, yes, it is really tight! I'll definitely need some tools.

In the meantime, I'm going to get to work on the fingerwheel.

By the way, I know that some collectors of various things, particularly many antiques, are very particular about not cleaning (or only lightly cleaning) an item, and insist on only minimal restoration. Of course, whatever I do to my phone, it is my intent to follow the best practices approved by folks in-the-know like you and the other folks on the forum, but how far would be too far? Should I leave any patina where I find it, for example, or can I clean it without hurting its inherent value? Right now, it's not my intent to turn around and sell anything, so I'm not concerned about a dollar value, as such, but rather I am concerned about the inherent value a collector, and lover of antiques and their aesthetic and continued utility, would place on an item. Do you have any words of advice so that I don't royally screw something up?

Thanks again for all of the excellent information, Bill. I appreciate your help!

Jay

PEnnsylvania 6-5000

Hi, Terry.

Thanks for the welcome!

I knew this would come up.

Yes, to my shame, I "mis-remembered" the number in Glenn's song. (The sun was in my eyes! It took a bad bounce, Coach! My dog ate my homework! A big monster made me do it!) And I didn't realize my mistake until I was into the personal e-mail verification stage of registration. I didn't want to be a pain in the butt by asking Dennis for a do-over so I could get it right, and decided to go ahead and own up to my faux pas to Dennis, and wear the name in shame among the members.

Heck of a start, huh?

However, thanks to Bill's suggestion, and Dennis' kind offer, I think I'll take Dennis up on the offer and ask him to change it to the correct number. I had no idea it would be fairly easy, or I might have asked Dennis sooner. In the long run, changing it would probably be the path of least resistance, negate the benefit of an explanation in my signature line, and might even save me a few tears.  :D

Jay

Phonesrfun

Quote from: PEnnsylvania 6-5000 on November 16, 2011, 07:20:42 PM
Thank you so much, Bill! I'm beginning to sense that you are one of the W.E. gurus around here – if not the guru!

Naw, I've just read a lot and have collected phones for a while.


QuoteThe book will have to wait a while though. The only copy I found in the wild is a used (which doesn't bother me) paperback (I'd like to find a hardcover, if possible) for $110.00 (a tad pricey for a paperback) plus shipping. Of course, that may be a bargain, and I just don't know it.

Holy Cow!...  Mine sure didn't cost $110, but I only know of it being in paperback with a plastic comb-type binding 8-1/2 x 11 is the size.  It must be somewhere cheaper than that!

QuoteI found some cloth cords on OPW that I am thinking about purchasing, but the description doesn't indicate if the mount cord is a four-conductor, and I can't tell from the picture. It sort of looks like it is; I think I see four colors, but the picture is too low of a resolution to see if there are four spades there. I'll have to call and find out. For some reason, the OPW site will not let me post a question to them.

I also noticed that the OPW mount cord has an RJ11 mod plug on one end. If I'm going from the phone to the subset, I'll need spades on both ends, wouldn't I?

On another post, I saw that OPW was one, if not the only, place to get cloth cords. Do you know of any other places, or should I buy them at OPW, cut the mod plug and add spades?

It also looks like OPW also has the W.E. handset tools, so I think I'll get one of those too. I'll have to go to Lowe's or Home Depot for the strap wrench. I tried to loosen it by hand, and, yes, it is really tight! I'll definitely need some tools.

OPW is definitely the best place to buy cords that I know of.  Phoneco also has cords (phonecoinc.com)  OPW will be quite helpful over the phone.  The cord you describe with the mod end is a line cord.  You want a deskset cord, and you do want 4 conductors.  Believe me, they have them and you can even specify the Western Electric colors and so forth.  You want the first item on this page:

http://www.oldphoneworks.com/subset/

When they say House of Telephones, that is indicating that the cord is the style of reproduction cord that Odis Levrier made at House of Telephones.  OPW bought House of Telephones out a few years ago when Odis retired.



QuoteBy the way, I know that some collectors of various things, particularly many antiques, are very particular about not cleaning (or only lightly cleaning) an item, and insist on only minimal restoration. Of course, whatever I do to my phone, it is my intent to follow the best practices approved by folks in-the-know like you and the other folks on the forum, but how far would be too far? Should I leave any patina where I find it, for example, or can I clean it without hurting its inherent value? Right now, it's not my intent to turn around and sell anything, so I'm not concerned about a dollar value, as such, but rather I am concerned about the inherent value a collector, and lover of antiques and their aesthetic and continued utility, would place on an item. Do you have any words of advice so that I don't royally screw something up?

Phone collectors are no exception to that general rule.  How much to restore or not and how much patina to leave is a personal choice, much the same as restoring a car.  Pretty much a judgement issue.  I have tended away from over restoring or even highly restoring, mostly because it takes a lot of work and time, and I am better at the electronics than I am at the reststoring any way.  Hey, I've messd up many a thing over the years, so we have all been there and done that, so if you want to ask ahead of time, go ahead.

QuoteThanks again for all of the excellent information, Bill. I appreciate your help!

No problem, you just caught me in a talkative mood.  Believe me, there are others around that have a heck of a lot more info than I do.

-Bill G

AE_Collector

Quote from: PEnnsylvania 6-5000 on November 16, 2011, 07:27:49 PM
Yes, to my shame, I "mis-remembered" the number in Glenn's song.
Heck of a start, huh?
Jay

Oh not to worry at all. I hesitated to ask just in case it was what you were going for. Maybe the "Motel 8" just around the corner...

I used to play the sax in a big band / dance band and loved playing that song.

Terry

PEnnsylvania 6-5000

Hi, Bill.

I am so sorry for my long delay in responding. I have been completely buried at work, was miserably sick for a week and a-half, had the holiday to work around, and then catch-up at work after the holiday. Happily, I was able to get today off, and at least for part of the day, am doing only what I want to do.

I'm glad to know that $110.00 is high for that book. I wasn't looking forward to paying that. I'll keep my eye out and try to find a less expensive copy.

Thanks for the link to the cord. I guess I wasn't looking in the right place. In between work, my sickness, and the holiday, I was able to order the handset, subset, and line cord, and they have arrived. Although the handset looks very good as it is, I think I'll take a look at the "Bakelite repair" section before I install the handset cord. I may want to touch it up a bit.

Also, thanks for the guidelines on restoration. I like to keep things as close to original if I can, but I did want to see if there was anything that was absolutely anathema.

I was also able to buy a strap wrench and was then able to loosen the spitcup and the transmitter housing (?). I cleaned them up a bit, cleaned all the threads and contacts, and put it all back together, adjusting it as you said, and it's all symmetrical now. Thanks for your help with that!

I also removed the fingerwheel and did my best to flatten it out. I've gotten it almost completely flat (it's lack of flatness is barely perceptible), but it still needs some tweaking. However, when I put it back on the dial, I noticed that, when spun, it still looks as much like a warped record as it ever did. It appears that the base of the nut on which it sits is not aligned correctly with the dial face.

I think the dial needs a bit of work too. Once that is done, that may, in itself, resolve the fingerwheel's "warped record" problem. I've pulled the dial out of the phone, but I'm going to hold off taking it apart until I have a diagram, and take a lot of pictures, and have the right tools. (I noticed the nut to which the fingerwheel attaches may need a special tool. I don't want to round it off, or strip it.)

I may have mentioned this in another post, but I was also able to buy a 634-A subset. It is extremely dirty, and looks like it has been completely neglected for fifty years, but I think it will clean up nicely. I only hope it works.

Thanks again; and again I'm sorry for the long delay in responding. I hope things will settle down for me after the Christmas holiday.

Jay

cihensley@aol.com

Bill:

I think the Larry Wolff book version with the plastic combs are copies made and sold by Gary Goff. The originals of Larry's book were perfect bound paper covered.

Chuck