Western Electric 2012C Transformer Questions for 702B Princess Phone

[jsowers]

What I would be the most concerned about is the three-conductor mounting cord on the light beige 702. You need four conductors minimum for a Princess phone. The original cord had five conductors. I only see red, green and yellow at the plug end and this looks a lot like a heavy duty mounting cord for a 500 set. So do you have a black mounting cord wire on the other end? Has it been snipped?

[GLadstone]

What I would be the most concerned about is the three-conductor mounting cord on the light beige 702. You need four conductors minimum for a Princess phone. The original cord had five conductors. I only see red, green and yellow at the plug end and this looks a lot like a heavy duty mounting cord for a 500 set. So do you have a black mounting cord wire on the other end? Has it been snipped?

Hi jsowers,

Thank you for taking the time to check the line wiring!

I went through my photos to double check:

The 1968 / 1970R light beige phone does have a five conductor line cord.

The white and black wires have been cut back at the plug end:



Edit:
The plan is to restore the 1968 / 1970 R light beige line cord like the 1963 pink 702B (i.e., add spade tips to all five line cord wires).
End edit.

Take care,
GLadstone

[GLadstone]

Hi Everyone,

A quick update:

The line cord has been repaired on the 1968 / 1970R Beige 702B Princess Phone-- the phone now works and rings!

---

1968 / 1970R Beige Princess Phone Line Cord Repair Overview:

The line cord was repaired at the plug end similar to what was detailed in the Line Cord / 505A Plug Questions for 702B Princess Phone topic:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=3155.0


Before (with four prong plug)
Photo from reply #27


Before (next to tape measure)


After (next to tape measure)


After (with 505A plug)

---

Further photo and video comparisons with the 1963 Pink Princess Phone coming soon!

Take care,
GLadstone

[GLadstone]

Hi Everyone,

As promised, here are the 1963 Pink 702B Princess Phone vs. 1968 / 1970R Beige 702B Princess Phone comparison photos and video clips!

---

1963 Pink 702B Princess Phone Background / Summary to Date:

After a few different adjustments to the M1A ringer in the 1963 Pink Princess Phone, the loud setting is ringing (and may sound "normal"), but the soft setting "rattles," so I've been wondering if the M1A ringer is working as expected and sounds as it should.

Through all the adjustments, the M1A ringer clapper to gong distance has improved, but is still slightly "wide," or "just outside of," the BSP recommended 0.010 - 0.020 inch range.

Since the ringer works and sounds "pleasant" on the loud setting, I have not further adjusted the M1A ringer clapper to gong distance.

----------

1963 Pink vs. 1968 / 1970R Beige Princess Phones Photos:

1963 vs. 1968 M1A Ringer: Clapper to Gong Distance:

1963 M1A Ringer (Pink Princess):
Gap between the clapper and gong > 0.020 inch


1968 M1A Ringer (Beige Princess):
Gap between the clapper and gong = 0.019 inch


---

1963 vs. 1968 M1A Ringer Volume Control (Soft and Loud Settings):

SOFT Setting
3-1963 M1A Ringer (Pink Princess)

(photo from reply #7)

SOFT Setting
10-1968 M1A Ringer (Beige Princess)


LOUD setting
3-1963 M1A Ringer (Pink Princess)

(photo from reply #7)

LOUD setting
10-1968 M1A Ringer (Beige Princess)

Note that the volume control metal piece touches the gong of the 1963 M1A Ringer in both the soft and loud settings, but only touches the gong of the 1968 M1A Ringer in the soft setting.

---

1963 vs. 1968 Wiring Differences:

On the pink 1963 Princess phone, there is a black wire on the 4010B network that starts at H and runs to A.



On the ivory 1968 / R 1970 Princess phone, this wire starts at H, but is insulated and tucked away (does not connect to anything).

----------

1963 Pink vs. 1968 / 1970R Beige Princess Phones Videos:

Notes:
-All videos are uploaded to YouTube, added to a Playlist, and have been made public.
-For better comparison, both phones were recorded on May 18, 2018.
--No adjustments were made to the 1963 Pink Princess Phone since the "After Third Adjustment" videos were recorded, so these video clips may also be used for comparison, if desired.

1963 vs. 1968 702B Princess Phone Comparison Videos (Playlist on YouTube):
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcV7ovc14AgsSnrJPTxQIRRl0D8aSqe_N

---

Direct links to video clips (5-18-2018 recordings):

Soft Setting: 1963 702B Phone Ringing (M1A Ringer)- 6143
https://youtu.be/DeCclNkDDI8

Soft Setting: 1968 702B Phone Ringing (M1A Ringer)- 6141
https://youtu.be/p5Q-R16Ft68

Loud Setting: 1963 702B Phone Ringing (M1A Ringer)- 6144
https://youtu.be/ppQaA6_wPUs

Loud Setting: 1968 702B Phone Ringing (M1A Ringer)- 6142
https://youtu.be/Kp0BjttBPME

---

Or, if you prefer, here is the YouTube channel link:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn90wwjV3rtzC1DEEBsJ-RA

---

I've also been working on the Classic to New Google Sites migration of my personal notes website.

For those of you that prefer to view things in multiple tabs / windows, here is the new link to my personal notes website:

GLadstone's Phones
https://sites.google.com/view/gladstonesphones

---

To my ear:

-The 1968 M1A ringer sounds very similar at both the loud and soft settings.

--It reminds me of another video found on YouTube and analyzed by TelePlay in reply #27 here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12714.msg148947#msg148947

-The 1963 M1A ringer loud setting is more pleasant than the 1968 M1A ringer.

---

For those of you with 702B Princess Phones, I'd love to hear your thoughts about how these two 702B Princess Phones compare to yours!

Especially if yours has an M1A ringer where the volume control metal piece touches the gong in both the soft and loud settings (like the 1963 pictured above).

---

Thank you to everyone for your assistance to reach this point with these phones!

Take care,
GLadstone

[poplar1]

If the metal piece touches the gong only in the soft setting in the 1968 ringer, then why should it always muffle (touch) the gong in the 1963 tel set? It seems to me that its entire raison d'etre is to dampen the sound *only* in the "soft" position.

[GLadstone]

Hi poplar1,

If the metal piece touches the gong only in the soft setting in the 1968 ringer, then why should it always muffle (touch) the gong in the 1963 tel set? It seems to me that its entire raison d'etre is to dampen the sound *only* in the "soft" position.

The volume control metal piece is as found on the 1963 Pink 702B M1A ringer.

I cannot answer if this is as designed, or if someone along the way bent it like this...

---

I don't remember when we purchased this phone, but looking at the date of the first post in my line cord topic, we've at least had this phone since 2010.

In that time, I have been searching this forum and the internet for comparable photos and videos of Princess Phones with a M1A Ringer like the one in this 1963 702B.

I haven't found any yet, but I keep looking from time to time...

---

Back in April 2015, you shared the M1A ringer BSP from October 1962 in reply #22.

Linked here again for ease of reference:
C18.048 I1 Oct62 - M1A N1A Ringer - Identification Maintenance Ocr R

It looks like the volume control metal piece could be illustrated in Figure 4 of this BSP, but I cannot see it / tell if it is...

Maybe someone reading this can enhance the BSP figure and report back and/or has a 702B phone with a M1A ringer volume control similar to this 1963 phone and will share their photos...

---

It has been a while since I last looked up the history of Western Electric Princess Phones and the transition dates from the 701 to the 702, but, if I remember correctly, I think the March 1963 dates on this phone place it within the first year of production.

I see that Paul F.'s Princess web page notes that the 702B phones were available starting in 1963:
http://paul-f.com/wePrincess.html

---

As always, thanks for your generous contributions!

Take care,
GLadstone

[poplar1]

See Fig. 1, 2, and 6 in BSP Section 501-259-100 issue 5. (TCI Library)
This BSP # replaced C 18.048

[poplar1]

Re "dampener spring":
See also aricle in Nov. 1965 Bell Labs Record Vol. 43 (TCI Library):
Designing Telephone Ringers

      The volume control is probably the ringer fea-
      ture most familiar to the customer. Gen-
      erally the volume control restricts the armature
      motion in various degrees so as to restrict the
      energy imparted to the gong by the clapper ball.
      Mechanically damping the gong or allowing the
      clapper to strike only one gong of a two-gong
      ringer are two other methods sometimes used in
      addition to limiting armature motion...

[GLadstone]

Hi poplar1,

See Fig. 1, 2, and 6 in BSP Section 501-259-100 issue 5. (TCI Library)
This BSP # replaced C 18.048

Re "dampener spring":
See also aricle in Nov. 1965 Bell Labs Record Vol. 43 (TCI Library):
Designing Telephone Ringers

      The volume control is probably the ringer fea-
      ture most familiar to the customer. Gen-
      erally the volume control restricts the armature
      motion in various degrees so as to restrict the
      energy imparted to the gong by the clapper ball.
      Mechanically damping the gong or allowing the
      clapper to strike only one gong of a two-gong
      ringer are two other methods sometimes used in
      addition to limiting armature motion...

Wow-- Thank you!
(In all my searches in the TCI Library, I've never seen these!)

---

Links for future reference:

501-259-100-i5-Ringers-M-and-N-Types Tl (September 1970)

501-259-100 I6 (January 1980)

65Nov BLR P395 Designing Telephone Ringers

---

A quick glance of the images in the 501-259-100-i5 (1970 version):
I can see the shape of the volume control metal piece in Figure 1 looks similar to the one in the 1963 pink 702B.

I'll take a closer look at these early next week-- Thank you again!

Take care,
GLadstone

[280Parka]

GLadstone, I've moved over from the "dead ringer" post, since this post seems more appropriate.  I did not realize at first that the bells were eccentric and was able to quickly adjust the spacing by rotating the bell until I got a pleasant ring on both Loud and Soft settings.  In my Soft setting the damping spring is clearly touching the bell, while the spring is free in the Loud setting. 

You mentioned another problem earlier in the post that had to do with a lack of dial tone that I was very interested in since the exact same thing happened to me.  Did you figure out what was causing that?  I haven't been able to duplicate the problem tonight, however.  But it was happening before when I was repeatedly plugging and unplugging the phone line connection and the light transformer while I was working on the phone that it seemed to happen.  The dial tone always eventually came back, but I could never tell what I was doing to cause it to go out and then come back.  I thought at first that it was the phone line but I was able to connect a test set in parallel at the same time and get a dial tone on it while I couldn't with the Princess.

[GLadstone]

Hi 280Parka,

GLadstone, I've moved over from the "dead ringer" post, since this post seems more appropriate.  I did not realize at first that the bells were eccentric and was able to quickly adjust the spacing by rotating the bell until I got a pleasant ring on both Loud and Soft settings.  In my Soft setting the damping spring is clearly touching the bell, while the spring is free in the Loud setting.

"It's Little. It's Lovely. It Lights!"

And, Rings!

I'm glad you were able to get a pleasant ring!

Cross-posting your first video (before adjustments) with the "clacking" sound for ease of reference:
Princess Phone not ringing (reply #20)

Please feel free to share your "after adjustment" videos in this topic (or the original topic) for future reference.

---

You mentioned another problem earlier in the post that had to do with a lack of dial tone that I was very interested in since the exact same thing happened to me.  Did you figure out what was causing that?  I haven't been able to duplicate the problem tonight, however.  But it was happening before when I was repeatedly plugging and unplugging the phone line connection and the light transformer while I was working on the phone that it seemed to happen.  The dial tone always eventually came back, but I could never tell what I was doing to cause it to go out and then come back.  I thought at first that it was the phone line but I was able to connect a test set in parallel at the same time and get a dial tone on it while I couldn't with the Princess.

Cross-posting your phone photos from the other topic for ease of reference:
Princess Phone not ringing (reply #14)

---

In my case, the dial tone issue seems to have been related to the original surge protector I used (seen in the second photo below).

Thankfully, after switching surge protectors, I have not had any issues with losing dial tone.

I do take "preventative" measures, however.

Since there are so many connection points, I go through and double-check that everything is connected as it should be from time to time.

I find that the four prong plug sometimes gets a little loose (as compared to the modular plugs, which "lock" into place), but never enough to interrupt the connection or usability.

For ease of reference, here are some photos of my set-up:


Photo from first post.


Photo from reply #6
Note: The original surge protector is pictured.

---

You mentioned repeatedly plugging and unplugging the phone.

It may or may not be related, but just in case, here is how I plug and unplug my 702B:

When disconnecting the phone, I unplug the transformer from the surge protector before unplugging the phone.

When connecting the phone, I plug the phone in before plugging the transformer into the surge protector.

---

To double-check this procedure, I was looking through ebay and the TCI Library for some original documentation.

Here's what I found:

Screenshot from from decomorrobay's ebay auction (Posting for reference only-- I have no connection to this seller or listing):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/232795905410



2012A and 2012C Transformer document at the TCI Library:
Princess Telephones, 2012 Tl

---

And, when I know I will be repeatedly plugging and unplugging the phone to test something (other than the dial / night light), I plug the line cord in and leave the transformer unplugged.

Hope that helps.

Take care,
GLadstone

[robert_m]

Just Quick reference:


CHEAT SHEET FOR TIP/RING TESTING WITH DIGITAL VOLT METER

Historically residential POTS Line phones were all negative with respect to ground.   

This assumes a LOOP-START line -

Line 1
Green (White Blue) = tip (+)
Red (Blue) = ring (-)

Line 2*
Black (White Orange) = tip (+)
Yellow (Orange) = ring (-)

*NOTE: The Yellow / Black wires were used in residential customers that had one line (the normal) and had princess phones (or original trimline phone) to lite the dial,  Original were WE 2012a transformer 6-8vac output, Signature Series were 9vac output and only needed IF you ran keypad as night light, with transformer in remote location. 

Remember the tip is the positive (ground) terminal and the ring is negative.

Black (neg) meter lead to the ring wire - Red (Blue)
Red (pos) meter lead to the tip wire – Green (White Blue)

Meter should indicate a negative approx -48vdc on standard POTS** line.
If meter indicates approx +48vdc, the wires are reversed either in cable or jack.
 
**NOTE: VoIP Lines usually do not provide 48vdc, as seen about 20vdc, and many line powered devices will not properly function if at all. 

[Jim Stettler]

red-ring-right
Meaning the above configurations should be  configured with ring to the right side of the Dmarc  as you face it,
Good info Robert,
Jim S.

[robert_m]

I just ran into this NOTE 2 problem in my home when it changed from copper to VoIP, so awaiting on a current loop device to test, to see if corrects problem on a Protel Pay Phone, and on another legacy telephone device i have that auto dials with cards, as it requires the 48vdc battery to function on the line.  Ill update once i get device in, not please with the cost but wost case is i trew 100 bucks in garbage......

[poplar1]

Just Quick reference:


CHEAT SHEET FOR TIP/RING TESTING WITH DIGITAL VOLT METER

Historically residential POTS Line phones were all negative with respect to ground.   

This assumes a LOOP-START line -

Line 1
Green (White Blue) = tip (+)
Red (Blue) = ring (-)

Line 2*
Yellow (White Orange) = tip (+)
Black (Orange) = ring (-)
 

Western Electric 2-line phones use black for tip (+) and yellow for ring (-) on the second line.
Here is a diagram for a WE 2510. Since it is polarity sensitive, you wouldn't be able to dial out on the second line if you connected yellow to tip and black to ring.