Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Auction Talk => Topic started by: Doug Rose on April 06, 2016, 04:25:29 PM

Title: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on April 06, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
Dates match, feet are wrong and no mention of a Grated grill. Not for the faint of heart!....Doug


http://tinyurl.com/j4t799g
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: poplar1 on April 06, 2016, 04:56:16 PM
He does claim it has vents in both places:

Western Electric 1936/1937 Model 302, apparently a 1936 PRE-release of Western Electric's 1937 NEW LINE of phones. Truly a VERY RARE FIND in American telephones, . . .maybe as (or MORE) rare than most mid 1920's W.E. 102 phones ! Made of heavy metal (not plastic as subsequents), contains the under-cradle VENTED model, SHORT cradle-'ears', 4H 1920's/1930's'clickity-clack' dial SOUND, cloth cords, and the E1 handset.  Take special notice of the '1936' dating on many of the vital electronic components in both the body and handset. Note also to how the unit is composed of a combination of both early and later 1937 features in order to get this product on the PRE-market, such as attachment method of leather footings to the base and vent-holes additionally on bottom of phone.  The phone-body itself though appears to have been repainted at some time. I have provided many photos of all important angles, . . .if more, let me know. PayPal only.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: Ktownphoneco on April 06, 2016, 07:07:13 PM
The induction coil is the thing that stands out in my mind.       I have 3 early Western 101A induction coils,  II - 1936,  I-1937 and II - 1937.     The 1936, and first quarter 1937 induction coils are of the early type.      That is that the core laminates are held together with No. 4 machine screws and hex nuts, and the top terminal deck sits on top the the slotted heads of the machine screws, and held in place by two copper bands with tabs at each end.      The copper bands are situated on top of the iron laminate cores, and held in place by the same machine screws that hold the laminates in place.
The 4 tabs at each end of the copper bands, curl up and over the terminal deck, holding it in place.
The terminal screws on all 3 of the early 101-A induction coils, are made of exposed brass.       The 2nd quarter 1937 induction coil, is in a 1937 first generation Western 302.      The iron core laminates and top deck are riveted together, in similar fashion as the remaining productions years in which the 101-A induction coil was produced.
The date stamps on the II-36, and I-37 coils, are stamped in vermilion red ink, and located on the "mahogany looking" fiber end plates which support the magnet wire windings.   IND 101A is stamped into the fiber board at the opposite end.     The earlier of the 3 induction coils, have the windings wrapped in something similar to friction tape.       The II - 37 coil is wrapped in a material which almost looks like a fine checked design of cloth, but with a lacquer or shellac outer coating that was still in use years later.    The type number and date is stamped on the top of the coil is the same as well "101A IND with II-37 underneath .        If there's no date stamp on the induction coil anywhere, I'd suspect it's been rubbed off with rubbing alcohol, lacquer thinner or acetone.
                                                       

Conductors from the ringer and hook switch should be soldered spade connectors.      The condenser may have self piercing spades.    I have a condenser marked III-37 which is actually painted with a grey/blue paint ( peeling of course as paint doesn't stick to lead very well)     It's stamped with an ink stamp "195 A CONDENSER III-37 WESTERN ELECTRIC U.S.A."
The opening at the top of the condenser where the 4 conductors emerge, resembles a sort of "turtle neck".     Odd compared to later versions.
If anyone wants photos of any of the above components, let me know.


Jeff Lamb
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: andre_janew on April 06, 2016, 07:15:25 PM
Did anyone notice a 12-48 date on the transmitter capsule?
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: Ktownphoneco on April 06, 2016, 07:28:19 PM
I noticed that as well, but they do get switched with the factory originals from time to time, especially the early versions with the screw on outer terminal ring that can loosen up and start losing carbon granules.      But it's still an indicator nonetheless.

Jeff Lamb
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: poplar1 on April 06, 2016, 08:08:19 PM
Also, the "basket weave" fabric jackets on the cords indicate 1942 or later.
Note "H1-3" stamped in back of housing above the cord entrance. By 7-37, that was shortened to "H1."
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: TelePlay on April 06, 2016, 08:11:10 PM
The shell has been painted.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: poplar1 on April 06, 2016, 08:21:16 PM
Here is a 101-type induction coil in a III 36 wall set. It is the old style that Jeff mentioned:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9396.msg100632#msg100632
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on April 07, 2016, 09:16:25 AM
Well, I am going to say what others seem to be thinking as well; my impression of the set was such that I would not pay a quarter of the asking price, for all the reasons already stated here.
I think the set was probably found in bad condition, and refitted with parts and painted to give the 'right' look. Perhaps this was done in refurbishing when they did have to resurrect any equipment to be found during the war, but why would that induction coil not have a date stamp if it was changed in refurbishing; replacement 101As did carry them too.  Only because someone removed it. The dates are all over the place. Only the base plate, ringer, condenser, and housing appear original to the advertised time.  The dial was probably swapped in, notice that the dial adapter is probably not a 59A, but likely a 59B, and it is black.  The handset is from 1934 and the cords were not installed by a WECo professional.

Let's see:
4H dial : $60
E1 hs:    $35
cords:    $25
coil:       $  5
'36 housing: $70
'36 base w/o coil:      $50
What's the total?


The only 101A induction coils without date stamp, are those in –W sets for catalog sales.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on April 07, 2016, 09:50:42 AM
Here's another shot of the touched up areas of the housing.

The price is a little ridiculous, but given the possibility that the dial, cords, and handset were probably decades apart in terms of dates; the seller, or whoever rebuilt it, did alright. The dial is the correct year and only one quarter shy of the chassis (and correct type for late '36). It was installed with a 59B instead of a 59A O-ring likely in the wrong color, but can't we be thankful that it was at least installed with a genuine WE O-ring in the correct manner? The cords have the correct jacketing (not the same weave pattern though), the handset is the correct type, and the paint was fixed up a little without going so far as to disturb any interior dates or markings.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: andre_janew on April 07, 2016, 12:17:15 PM
If what unbeldi says is true, this phone is way overpriced.  A $250 price would be more reasonable.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2016, 01:17:04 PM
Is the handset cracked ? Overpriced in my opinion.

D/P
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on April 07, 2016, 06:11:46 PM
I agree....way over priced. Feet are wrong and there is no wood spacer. Its a $150 phone with a cracked E-1 and that is for the dates and the dial. The shell has to be stripped and redone. I do like the H1-3, I had forgotten about it and had to check mine.

Christian...what ever happened to your 36 302 Shell.....Doug
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on April 07, 2016, 09:52:02 PM
I had emailed the seller whether the induction coil has any dates on it, and got the answer it does not.

By second quarter 37 the date was printed on the winding cover, but before, it was on the side of the cardboard spool.

I think the dial card is also home made.  I find it very strange that a station number would be in the 9000 block, as it is 9944.  Usually that range was reserved for payphones.

Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: poplar1 on April 07, 2016, 11:26:43 PM
I agree that "99xx" sounds like a typical coin line.  However, phone numbers in the 9000 block were not reserved only for coin lines, as this would tie up 1,000 lines per office (of 10K lines) for a much smaller number of coin phones. My first line -- a 4FR (4 party flat rate) -- in high school was 404 762-9068.

Operators were required to "check for coin" when making collect calls to a line in a number block that might be a coin line. That digit was not always 9.  I believe Bell Canada used 0xxx.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: poplar1 on April 07, 2016, 11:49:01 PM
Here is another 101A IND without markings stamped on top, in a 302 assembled in I 37. It was Auction Contest #160.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13433.msg140541#msg140541
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on April 08, 2016, 08:10:42 AM
Just like the use of certain 'researched' central office names was recommended centrally by AT&T/BTL in 1955, they could only recommend the use of 8000 and 9000 number blocks for coin lines. The Notes on Distance Dialing specifically recommend the 9- and 8-thousand (when needed) blocks to be set aside for such purposes with the goal that operators don't even have to check manually for coin services.  The Notes also stated that in the larger Bell and independent areas this was already practiced.
I seem to recall a mention that on the average a 10,000 line office had only a fraction of numbers actually used, so that setting aside one block would not constrain the local numbering plan much, which seems about right, because in the 1950s there were still thousands of offices that didn't even use a 2-5 numbering plan, but something considerably smaller, such as 2-4 or even 1-4.

So, no it is not a certainty, but something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: poplar1 on April 08, 2016, 11:30:31 AM
I don't have access to Notes on Distance Dialing at this time. However, 9xxx could still be "first choice" for coin lines, without being exclusive of other classes of service. I seem to recall on more than one occasion the operator asking me "Is that a coin phone?" when I was making a collect call to a residential line ending in 9xxx. By assigning all coin phones to 9xxx, this would usually mean the operator wouldn't have to "check for coin" say for a call to a NNX-2xxx line.

If all coin lines are 9xxx, then all 9xxx are not necessarily coin lines. Our next door neighbor's number (1FR) was
404 766-9012.

Stan or Jim could possibly add comments on why coin lines needed to be assigned numbers in the same block, at least in Step-by-step offices. Step offices did not have the same numbering flexibility as Crossbar or ESS. Hunt groups in SxS had to be sequential numbers 377-2411 through 2440 for example (Emory Univ. 701B PBX. Agnes Scott College was 373-2571 or FREAKS 1.) In 5XB offices the other members of a hunt group could be random numbers.

Reserving four thousand 9xxx numbers in our local SxS (POplar 1-, 2-, 6- and 7-) would have required creating the new 768 (1ESS) and 763 offices even sooner than was otherwise necessary (1972). This meant not just soft numbers but additional equipment.

The 25 Auburn Bldg. in Atlanta, built in 1916, was still in service in the mid-70s with 3 step offices (523-, 524-, 525-). All the other lines downtown were served by 5XB or ESS. Even though presumably new subscribers had been assigned 5XB or ESS lines for some time, there were still about 15,000 (out of less than 30K max.) subscribed lines at 25 Auburn on cutover day, according to Nelson Crist, the foreman. (He told me he had never seen the inside of an ESS c.o.)
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: Tim Mc on June 22, 2016, 02:25:24 PM
Looks like this one is back up for auction.  I have an I-37 302 and the induction coil has an I-37 date on the side of the coil, which is hard to see without removing it.  Also, I believe the terminal screws should be brass.
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: andre_janew on June 22, 2016, 06:45:15 PM
He's reduced the starting price to $535.  Still hasn't  had a bid on it yet!
Title: Re: IV36 302 on eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 24, 2016, 08:50:24 AM
Quote from: andre_janew on June 22, 2016, 06:45:15 PM
He's reduced the starting price to $535.  Still hasn't  had a bid on it yet!

It was relisted more than few times starting at $675 and going down a bit with each re-list. The last listing, which was ended by the seller due to "an error in the listing," was at $525. Looks like it may have had a BIN of $715.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/252392239255?
Title: Re: Assignment of 9xxx numbers to coin lines (was: IV36 302 on eBay)
Post by: Alex G. Bell on January 23, 2017, 08:40:20 AM
Coin lines were assigned to the 9000 block (and 8000 too if necessary) so that operators could easily identify potential attempts to place collect calls to a coin station, demanding deposits from the answering party.

In COs of any size (with >10,000 lines i.e. multiple office codes) coin features and party line features were usually equipped on only one of the switches for reasons of equipment economy.  Consequently the other offices in the same CO building had 9xxx numbers available which did not have coin features which were assigned to ordinary customer lines.  The one switch with coin and party line features served all coin and party lines.

I grew up with a 9000 series number on one of the non-coin units served from a building with 6 office codes.   Whenever I attempted to call home collect the operator would challenge with: "is that a coinbox/paystation?" because of the 9000 number.  If in doubt about the truthfulness of what the caller said she would have to call "Rate & Route" to determine whether the called office code served coin lines.

Quote from: poplar1 on April 08, 2016, 11:30:31 AM
I don't have access to Notes on Distance Dialing at this time. However, 9xxx could still be "first choice" for coin lines, without being exclusive of other classes of service. I seem to recall on more than one occasion the operator asking me "Is that a coin phone?" when I was making a collect call to a residential line ending in 9xxx. By assigning all coin phones to 9xxx, this would usually mean the operator wouldn't have to "check for coin" say for a call to a NNX-2xxx line.

If all coin lines are 9xxx, then all 9xxx are not necessarily coin lines. Our next door neighbor's number (1FR) was
404 766-9012.

Stan or Jim could possibly add comments on why coin lines needed to be assigned numbers in the same block, at least in Step-by-step offices. Step offices did not have the same numbering flexibility as Crossbar or ESS. Hunt groups in SxS had to be sequential numbers 377-2411 through 2440 for example (Emory Univ. 701B PBX. Agnes Scott College was 373-2571 or FREAKS 1.) In 5XB offices the other members of a hunt group could be random numbers.

Reserving four thousand 9xxx numbers in our local SxS (POplar 1-, 2-, 6- and 7-) would have required creating the new 768 (1ESS) and 763 offices even sooner than was otherwise necessary (1972). This meant not just soft numbers but additional equipment.

The 25 Auburn Bldg. in Atlanta, built in 1916, was still in service in the mid-70s with 3 step offices (523-, 524-, 525-). All the other lines downtown were served by 5XB or ESS. Even though presumably new subscribers had been assigned 5XB or ESS lines for some time, there were still about 15,000 (out of less than 30K max.) subscribed lines at 25 Auburn on cutover day, according to Nelson Crist, the foreman. (He told me he had never seen the inside of an ESS c.o.)