Greetings, and some newbie questions

[bobbyk]

Apparently I was a little premature in my conclusion that the 2500 works perfectly with the CID removed. I tried to dial out last night and tho I hear the dial tone and button tones, the dial tone never stops. I press a button and hear the button tone but on release the dial tone returns.

Could the gateway phone connector be wired backward ?

[poplar1]

If polarity is not correct, you won't hear the dual tones from a Western Electric 35-type  dial at all, only clicks (unless you have a polarity guard installed inside the phone).

If you do hear tones, it is possible that either the low tone or the high tone, or both, are not sending the precise frequency. The new devices (cable modems, VOIP, U-verse voice, voice mail,etc.) are less tolerant of dials that are not tuned to the correct frequency.

[unbeldi]

Since you reported once that the 2500 worked (perfectly!), we have to assume that you have something in the signaling path that is distorting the signals.
Has anything changed in your configuration?
You were talking about a dial gizmo... is that in front of the 2500 now ?

[bobbyk]

Since you reported once that the 2500 worked (perfectly!), we have to assume that you have something in the signaling path that is distorting the signals.
Has anything changed in your configuration?
You were talking about a dial gizmo... is that in front of the 2500 now ?

Oh no.no,no. Dialgizmo was only ordered yesterday for the 202 I normally use. The 2500MM was my backup phone that I'm using till the dialgizmo arrives. Only last night did I get around to plugging it back in (without the CID) only to find it wont dial out even tho I now hear the button tones.

As I've never even opened up this phone I'm unsure if the tones are even adjustable but I do have a scope to check the tone frequencies tho it may be more trouble than it's worth. I'm just fishin for easy ideas that might fix the problem before diving into the deep end with my limited knowledge of telephone equipment.

Routers on the otherhand...I actually feel bad for not checking that first since u-verses gateway is a new piece in my house and I had to reconfigure it to allow me to use my own network router- something the installer didn't even know how to do. Perhaps there's a menu on it to tweek the phone interface. I dunno.

[poplar1]

. Out of 5 phones in my house, the only one that actually works is an old trimline that has seen maybe 5 calls in the last 10 years.

So what can I do  for the 2500 ? It worked fine till u-verse and it's a nice backup phone. Can anyone help ?

If the Trimline is working on U-Verse, but the 2500 is not (even though you hear the tones), then I still say that the tones must be off-frequency.

[bobbyk]

If the Trimline is working on U-Verse, but the 2500 is not (even though you hear the tones), then I still say that the tones must be off-frequency.

Would that indicate a deteriorated cap in the phone ?
If anyone can provide a link, I'll hook up the scope and retune the pad. I'm just not sure where to connect the scope.

[unbeldi]

It is not as simple as connecting a scope and tuning something.

TouchTone is a combination of two different frequencies from a low group and a high group. The columns of the keypad are the high group, and rows are the low group.
On the early touchtone dials it was possible to generate only one of the frequencies when pressing two row or two column keys simultaneously, but this was not possible on later dials.
Can you produce a single frequency on yours?

If not, then you need a tunable notch filter to eliminate one of the frequencies.
If all that is good, then you need to have accuracy of ca. 1% to 2% in frequency. Unless you have a digital scope with frequency counter built-in, it is probably difficult to achieve that without having a reliable reference signal of the correct frequency.

But even if the frequencies are adjusted precisely, a dial can still fail, because the DTMF also has the property called twist.  Twist the intensity relationship between the two frequency signals, which must also be met for proper TouchTone decoding.

If you still want to pursue that, then you need to make yourself the right tool to tune the inductances in the dial. It has to be a non-ferric tool, usually plastic or wood, because the tool is inserted into the center of the inductors to turn the core.

But IMHO, I don't see that you have resolved or diagnosed potentially other problems yet, before attempting something much more difficult and perhaps not necessary.

[bobbyk]

Yes, you are absolutely correct, I've still got a bunch of other things yet to test first.

Edit- Checked the 2500mm on all my jacks, it rings on all of them. On ONLY one jack, the # button does interrupt the dial tone, like a number button is being transmitted.  On ALL jacks, pressing button 1,2 produces a single tone, as does 2,3 , 1,4 , 2,5 , 3,6, etc tho the pitch does change as I descend downward thru the rows. Pressing any 2 buttons in a single row produces the same tone, as does any 2 in the same column. I opened the phone up, keypad has a datestamp of 05/79. There are 2 large coils on the rear of the keypad. All buttons work and produce different tones, and they don't sound any different thru the receiver than the trimline that works. I did notice tho, the receiver volume is a bit lower than any other phone in the house, we202 included.

I put the CID inline between the gateway, and the phone line and the 2500 no longer produces key tones when pressed. I know without a doubt the CID is inverting the polarity so I'm not surprised the keypad tones stopped. I could find no options in the gateway menu to change any settings in the voice channel, but I know they're there- I have the admin manual for the gateway.

Now what should I check ?

Edit #2: I also found this (tho apparently unrelated) I'll be opening up the phone again this weekend to take a real close look at the wiring.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16402.0

[bobbyk]

I've cleaned the switches on the dial and moved the A/A1 hook lead as instructed. Still cannot break the dial tone. Was going the check the gateway codec priority but AT&T has the admin console locked out, so I cannot verify if codec 711u is primary or not.

[Victor Laszlo]

if you have a phone that works reliably, and one that does not, here is a way to check the tones without any test equipment:

Take both phones off-hook at the same time, on the same line, or intercom circuit, or battery supply.

Using the "two buttons at a time in a row or column" method (which you are familiar with) press the same combination of buttons on both phones at the same time. If the tones are close enough, you will hear minimal or no "beating". If you hear significant beating, then one dial is out of specs. Do this for all 7 tones. Then decide whether the problem is with the highs or the lows, and adjust the ferrite coil for that group on the rear of the dial. 

When we hear that a person has "cleaned the switches (contacts) on the dial" we shudder to think what you might have done. We hope that you did not use any abrasive methods, because the contacts are designed to be self-cleaning. Only the use of a piece of bond paper or a business card, held between the contacts, and carefully used to wipe the contacts, will give you the desired result. Any other method will remove the gold plating on the contacts and the dial is ruined and can be discarded.

[bobbyk]

Don't sweat it, I read the warnings about the gold plating on the contacts so I was extra gentle with spray contact cleaner, tho the dial was completely spotless when I broke the tape on the dust covers.

They use scotch tape to tape the two dust cover halves together ?

[bobbyk]

@unbeldi

With your help, I'de like to finish diagnosing this 2500. I've ruled out any house wiring issues as it rings on all jacks and I get the dial tone on them as well. The phone still works in all respects on a traditional landline as a neighbor was kind enough to let me test it in her house.

I have a dual trace digital scopemeter to aid in testing, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Could you point me in the right direction ?

[unbeldi]

@unbeldi

With your help, I'de like to finish diagnosing this 2500. I've ruled out any house wiring issues as it rings on all jacks and I get the dial tone on them as well. The phone still works in all respects on a traditional landline as a neighbor was kind enough to let me test it in her house.

I have a dual trace digital scopemeter to aid in testing, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Could you point me in the right direction ?

So, what was the problem?
Let's see....

So the phone work correctly on the neighbors telephone line, you can dial out and receive calls.
In that case, I would not touch the dial pad adjustments.

I am not clear on just what the house wiring situation is.
We have to establish some baseline for discussion.
What is the source of dial tone?  It is a voice-over-IP adapter, still?
Where is that adapter located?
Does the phone work when plugged directly into the adapter?
Is the house wiring very old or newer ?  How many branches are there from the main network interface?

[bobbyk]

So, what was the problem?
Let's see....

So the phone work correctly on the neighbors telephone line, you can dial out and receive calls.
In that case, I would not touch the dial pad adjustments.

I am not clear on just what the house wiring situation is.
We have to establish some baseline for discussion.
What is the source of dial tone?  It is a voice-over-IP adapter, still?
Where is that adapter located?
Does the phone work when plugged directly into the adapter?
Is the house wiring very old or newer ?  How many branches are there from the main network interface?

Thanks for the reply:

Source of the dialtone- from what I gather the VOIP gateway is the source, BUT it must be connected to the POTS line. The phone neither generates a dialtone or dials if connected to the gateway alone, or the plug going into gateway from the phone jack. The docs I gathered about the uverse VOIP system seem to indicate it draws power from the old lines, but completes the call via the 'other' pair the DSL service uses.
The gateway is located next to my router, in my upstairs computer room.
A NEW line was run from the house service box directly to the VOIP gateway.
The rest of the lines in the house are about 10 years old.
As to how many branches from the main network interface- I'm not sure if you're referring to the box on the side of the house, or the gateway. I'm testing the phone on the nearest jack to the gateway, literally 5 feet away from the gateway. The gateway has a dedicated line running straight to the service box on the side of the house, about 100 feet away.

[unbeldi]

I am sorry, I can't quite follow that to understand what the connections are.  But from what I know about U-Verse, it is delivered by ADSL or VDSL.
I suspect that the line that is delivering the A/VDSL service is a dry line without telephone service.  In that case the gateway must have a media adapter for analog telephone service built-in, and that telephone adapter should have a separate RJ11 jack to plug a telephone into.  How many RJ connectors does the box provide?
If the telephone service is somehow overlaid on the same port, then there must be a filter installed somewhere to separate the frequency bands of the xDSL and the phone service.

I am guessing that the wiring of the box is somehow incorrect, and this screws up the DTMF tones of the 2500 telephone.

Have you called AT&T about the correct wiring of the equipment they provided?  AT&T also provides self-help installation guides on-line.