Hello,
I recently purchased what I believe to be a 51AL Candlestick from ebay that (much to my surprise), had been used as a high voltage electrical switch, possibly as a lamp. The receiver is missing, and the dial is a 5h.
I was wondering if A) It looks authentic, and B) I should refurbish it or return it (price was ~160).
I'll attach some pictures:
Transmitter:
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8099/imgp2314.jpg)
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7523/imgp2317z.jpg)
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7088/imgp2299.jpg)
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/359/imgp2296m.jpg)
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4966/imgp2298.jpg)
Receiver:
(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4640/imgp2312x.jpg)
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4562/imgp2310.jpg)
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9931/imgp2309m.jpg)
Dial:
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6110/imgp2303.jpg)
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3109/imgp2305y.jpg)
Body:
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8880/imgp2300k.jpg)
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6701/imgp2301s.jpg)
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3035/imgp2302.jpg)
Jack,
I am not convinced that the phone is authentic. It may be a Korean copy. At any rate, I do not think that it is worth $160, so, if you can get a refund, I would suggest doing that. Others here may disagree.
Larry
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on January 10, 2011, 04:39:49 PM
Jack,
I am not convinced that the phone is authentic. It may be a Korean copy. At any rate, I do not think that it is worth $160, so, if you can get a refund, I would suggest doing that. Others here may disagree.
Larry
Thanks for the reply Larry,
This is my first candlestick so I'm having trouble determining its authenticity. I had read this post Link (http://www.ehow.com/how_4605620_buy-original-candlestick-telephone.html) regarding the authenticity of telephones and it looks like everything matches. However, what concerns me is the inside of the receiver which looks like a more modern casting, and the lettering on the back of the receiver which seems more rough than it should, but I could be mistaken on both counts.
Here is the link to the original auction which has some more pictures
Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=360329388744&si=SP1tPlFrwcM8Em1ti%252FB5p9l8j7Q%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT#rpdId) ( dead link 12-06-21 )If it turns out it actually is a fake I will most definitely return it by using paypal's buyer protection, since if anything, the item is not complete as it was missing the transmitter element.
Is there anything else I should look into to determine authenticity?
I figure that to make it work all I need to do is get one of those transmitter combos that they sell on oldphoneworks, and hook it up to a network...
Thanks,
Jack
Jack, I think there was a posting recently about these reproduction sticks with the writing on the back of the transmitter cup. I'm sure one of the other guys will weigh in on this. I have no expertise in them but the photo you posted sure looks like one of those repos. I'll see if I can find it and if so will post the link here. Meanwhile I'm sure someone else will also comment.
Jack, have you looked at this?
http://www.oldphoneman.com/Fakes.htm
I literally was just reading about it just now. I really couldn't find anything there that would indicate that it is a fake, except for the fact that all fakes are 51al's, but not that all 51al's are fakes :D
I did find this searching the forums though:
Quote from: bingster on September 30, 2008, 05:10:46 PM
Uh oh. A 151AL shouldn't have anything on the back of it's transmitter cup.
As a clue, "American Bell Telephone Company" is AT&T's original parent, and the name wasn't used after 1899, if I'm not mistaken. Reproductions, though, almost always use the "American Bell" name.
But oldphoneman doesn't mention anything about it, although he does caution about Dec 1910, which this one does not say...
I'm not so sure about this one. The transmitter cup doesn't look right, but the rest of it looks good to me (although very clean). I've never seen a repro perch with a strike-out like this one has, and the receiver is a correctly marked original 706A. The shaft retainer appears to be the correct material and has age to it, too. I dunno.
This might be hard to judge, but does the hookswitch pop up quickly, or do the springs seem "soft" and slow to raise up? Can you show a photo of the rivet on the hookswitch, and also the markings on the front edge of the base?
I am not a candlestick expert but, in my opinion that is too much money for an incomplete stick even if they are not repro parts.
Jack...the brass WE 5H dial is the real deal, these are nice brass dials made in the first two months of 1949 from excess brass from the was effort. What is the transmitter number on the front, it is blinded by the flash. Bakelite MP have a star in the center, hard to tell with the flash. The dial is the real, the handset looks like a later WE receiver, the transmitter cup is awfully clean as is the base. Without better pictures, my vote is for a fake. How much did you spend? $160, way too much for this. The dial is a tough find, worth around $50 in working condition. Brass dials really dress up brass sticks ....Doug
@Kidphone: here is a better picture of the mouthpiece: [EDIT] It does have a star and the numbers 337 underneath.
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9749/imgp2315.jpg)
@HarrySmith:
The phone is complete, except for the transmitting element, although as others have said, I probably did overpay, but it seems to be along the selling prices for dialed candlesticks on ebay (probably not the best place to get bargains on these things).
IMHO I would call this a frankenphone, some good old parts (brass dial and starred mouthpiece) mixed with Korean parts (other brass). The first 'red flag" that comes to mind is the brass base, shaft and transmitter. When I run across all-brass sticks I find 99% of the time they are reproductions. Brass that old should have a nice toned patina - not shiny. The receiver and other parts show NO signs of wear; on an original phone the items should show some aging.
This is one reason I am very weary of some phones from eBay. There are a lot of very good and honest sellers on eBay, some of them are actively on this board.
Russ
Agreed.....it is Frankenphone, transmitter plate and bakelite mouth piece look real, as does the great dial and the later version receiver. After that, I think it is all repro. As Russ said, it should not have that shine to it, especially on the inside. If you spent $160, you sent way to much, if ~160 means pounds and not dollars, you REALLY spent way too much. This is just my opinion,,,,Doug
I think a parts phone. Internally some parts are way too clean, and other parts are original, but the internal stuff looks repro.
D/P
Or you could just take the clean shiny parts and set them in the back yard for the winter. Next spring - presto - antique phone.
I think its a frankenphone as well. I don't think shine is a good indicator of age as old candlesticks are being brassed out all the time, and brass isn't an original finish. The parts may not be Korean repro, but possibly from one of the other sources? The dial is nice, but keep in mind that the 164A dial plate did not come into service until after the vast majority of candlesticks had been phased out. Its a red flag on a candlestick.
Quote from: Sargeguy on January 11, 2011, 09:03:17 PM
I think its a frankenphone as well. I don't think shine is a good indicator of age as old candlesticks are being brassed out all the time, and brass isn't an original finish. The parts may not be Korean repro, but possibly from one of the other sources? The dial is nice, but keep in mind that the 164A dial plate did not come into service until after the vast majority of candlesticks had been phased out. Its a red flag on a candlestick.
this brass dial was made in the first two months of 1949 only, well after the candlestick era. I agree with the shine of brass on the outside, but on the inside, it would never be this shiny if it was the real deal. ....Doug
Jack,
Since the dial is somewhat valuable, and the receiver and mouthpiece appear to be genuine, I would ask the seller for a partial refund, perhaps $90-$100, if I were in your position. I would explain that the transmitter (which is a critical component) is missing and that most of the brass parts look like reproductions. If the seller agrees to a full refund with return, he is already out about $30 for shipping and then has to relist the item and expect a lower selling price, so it would be in his interest to cut his losses and refund most of your money.
I am sure that other forum members have opinions on this.
Larry
I am not an expert on candlesticks but I have bought a few off eBay without any problems. Old Phone Man's fakes page is a great place to start, but Korean repros aren't the only lemons out there. Here are a few rules I follow:
-Avoid brassed out candlesticks. They have been tampered with already and who knows what else has been done to them
-Avoid shiny glossy black parts for the same reason as above. These originally had a japanned finish, nickel plating, or Bower-Barf coating originally, none of which had a high gloss.
-Look for ratty beaten up cords and base covers, avoid brown lamp cord like the plague
-Look for older rural or Z-operator dial plates
-Look for the outside mounted fingerstops that indicate a #2 dial. Don't expect one however as these were often replaced with #4s or #5s. 151ALs are more likely to have #4s.
-Original dial cards or no dial cards are the best, those fake ones that they sell on eBay are a red flag.
-The property of and patent dates were stamped, not engraved, onto the transmitter cup. Also the 4 transmitter mounting screw holes around the cup should be closed. Open ones indicate that it is most likely from a microphone or railroad dispatcher's phone.
-"May be reproduction" means "definitely a reproduction"
-Ask questions about the origin "estate find" means yard sale, cleaning out a barn is better, been in the family for generations even better, owned by my grandfather who was a Bell System installer is even better.
Everything I see is original WE parts. That solid brass #5 dial is hard to find.The cup would not be a hard part to locate for replacement.
Robby
I made a post the other day about his, but it got lost in space.
I agree this is an old one, not a repo. The repo cups have a Nov. 1910 date on them, and the screw hols are just a slot. This cup has the WE odd shape holes.
The lamp hole can be fixed easly. I use a soft brass weld rod to fill it, then re-buff.
Switch plate is old, the repo's are not this good.
Stem bolt is old, I don't now how to tell you how. You just need to but them side by side and it is plan as day.
Dial have never been repo, the cost, to do so was and is to much. (yes it was looked into)
The rec. is a WE 706A.
Trans missing. If it was going to be made a working phone, just use a T1 with leads. The old ones only work about 1/2 the time, and not very good at that. (Phoneco made a net work with mike that fits inside the cup, works great, I have used the in the past)
At $160, yes it may be a bit high for a collector, I would pay $130 in a heart beat for this, if on a road trip. But I don't need any right now. But at $160, this is in line with eBAy sales.
What a re-fund ?? How chicken S--- it that ??? Just because your not happy with it, does not mean the seller need to give you a re-fund of any kind.
Would you do this at a live sale ?? NO WAY !!
Over the year (25+) I have over paid more than ones for something at auctions and yard sells, shop's and show's too.
YES you may not like this, but be a MAN and just take you lumps and move on.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Vern P
YES I may be missing something hear. But let me make a few points.
The link to "fake C/S" has been noted hear.
In short, the repo base have a pin that is crooked, and marks around it, or the newer ones have "tap"rather than a pin. The base is a bit taller on the bottom flat edge, only about 3/16 or so. I have a hard time with sometimes too.
It has been said that "the inside is to clean" Have you ever cleaned a dirty nickel bell in ammonia ?? Not only does it clean the outside but the inside too. I have never clean brass with ammonia, but it should work the same.
Vern P
PS I have a 51AL that is 95% with a 100% #2 dial up for trade. Yes I may just sell it too.
Quote from: Vern P on January 13, 2011, 12:07:42 AM
Over the year (25+) I have over paid more than ones for something at auctions and yard sells, shop's and show's too.
I've done this, too. I have to say, though, that once the initial sting of overpaying has passed, I've never regretted anything I've overpaid for. You forget about it rather quickly. And you can also look at it this way: Some things we get are tremendous bargains, and are way undervalued. Those cases usually more than make up for the few times we may spend a bit too much.
It's just my opinion, but I'd certainly keep it and be happy with it. If you dislike the unoriginal "brassed out" look, it's easy enough to return it to all-black, the way it originally was.
Was the phone sold as a phone or a lamp or an I don't know. I guess an auction posting would help?
Vern states that if you put the brass in amonia, he thinks it will shine like new. If he is correct, than the seller knew this was an empty phone when he/she took it apart to clean. I have never seen an old brass phone this shiny on the inside, so it had to have had help. "Patina" forming might be slower on the inside, but certainly not non existant.
The only true way to figure this out is to see the auction, if indeed it was an auction. Robbie and Vern think it is 100% WE real deal. With the pictures I have seen, I cannot agree or disagree, they are inconclusive. How about a picture of the phone fully assembled as found. I have not seen the base cover or the cords. Were the cords AC electric cords, or cloth.
As for a refund, I buy and sell on eBay and stand 100% behind what I sell. If I sold a WE Candlestick phone, that turned out not to be 100% of what I said it was, I would offer a partial refund or take it back for a 100% refund. eBay is not a flea market or a yard sale. Sellers have a reputation top uphold.
Conversely, I would not be spending $160 for a WE dial stick unless it was perfect with a #2 dial, and an old marked bakelite receiver, they are too plentiful.
The brass 5H dial is worth $50 tops and the receiver $20, that's alot to eat if everything else is not the real deal.
As Rod Stewart said, "Every picture tells a story, don't it?" I've heard the stories, I need the picutres, good pictures, complete pictures....Doug
I remember seeing the listing, but can't find it now. Most of those items discussed were disclosed by pictures.
I would feel worse if I were the buyer of this one:
http://tinyurl.com/4r2qz6d
Now that's just a shame. The person who bought it is probably an amateur who has no idea what he's bought.
That last one was a bad deal for a fake
Robby
Did you notice that there were 39 bids on that candlestick? Apparently lot of people were unaware that the phone was a fake. Ebay even posts articles about being careful about fake phones - it's a shame so many people are will to spend a lot of money on something without doing any research.
I just looked at Phoneco site, they sell the 51AL C/S KIT for $209 and a WORKING one for $239, add $30 for a ringer.
I remember when I paid $69 for them.
Vern P