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Antique Store Find - 851 with G12 Handset

Started by compubit, June 19, 2019, 10:36:45 PM

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compubit

I'm down in Huntsville, AL for work and stopped by an antique shop recommended by a former co-worker (he sent pictures of several 3-slot phones - long gone...). Several run of the mill phones,  it I see the 851 on the top shelf and it's labeled $19 - looks to be black with an ivory handset, so I start to look closer: it's black with a G-12 handset. Cool!

I the check inside the caps (it doesn't look painted, but it also doesn't look normal ivory), and discover that the handset is white (with a very filthy coiled cord...). I buy it for $20.71 after tax and will clean it up when I get home.

I've been looking for a white 851 (have a white 2851), but now have the G-12 handset to go along with my previous light gray rotary number cover for an 851.  Now to find a white 851/2851 case...

Jim
A phone phanatic since I was less than 2 (thanks to Fisher Price); collector since a teenager; now able to afford to play!
Favorite Phone: Western Electric Trimline - it just feels right holding it up to my face!

Key2871

Very cool find. I haven't seen one with that type of hand set for a long long time.  There's a find of the month, if not the year.
KEN

Jim Stettler

Nice find. That isn't an easy phone to find, and most collectors are not aware of that style of G handset. You should post it to find of the month.
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

oldguy

congratulations Jim, great find. I'm one of those that's not familiar with a G12 handset. i'll have to research them.
Gary

jsowers

The key feature of those handsets is the cord. It's a large modular Trimline handset cord, or so says Paul's site. The question is why would they do such a thing since a handset didn't need all those conductors? It only needed three. Those handset cords were expensive to manufacture in their day and included either gold or silverplated ends where the wires were terminated.

Is there something else contained in that handset like a volume control? Or is it just a transmitter and receiver like a G3?

It may have just been their way of making a modular handset early in the game. Looking at the design of the 800 series phones, I would bet dropped and broken handsets were common and this was one way to swap them out, but nothing the end user would be expected to be able to do.

My allergy doctor, stationed in NC Baptist Hospital, had these 800 series phones in his examination rooms and I watched the line lights blink while waiting and listening to the racket three secretaries typing on three typebar IBM Executive typewriters at the same time would make. It was an interesting place.
Jonathan

poplar1

Pre-minimodular. ISTR that early 2830s also had G12 handsets as well as 25-pair mounting cords that plugged into the base.

Quote from: jsowers on June 22, 2019, 07:35:32 PM
The key feature of those handsets is the cord. It's a large modular Trimline handset cord, or so says Paul's site. The question is why would they do such a thing since a handset didn't need all those conductors? It only needed three.

3? I thought G-type handsets starting with the G1A, used at least 4-conductor cords.
Many Trimline handset cords were only 4-conductor.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

jsowers

#6
Quote from: poplar1 on June 22, 2019, 10:19:56 PM
3? I thought G-type handsets starting with the G1A, used at least 4-conductor cords.
Two of the wires in the G handset cord were tied together inside a 500 set (red and white), so you could get by with three wires if you used a jumper wire inside the handset. Not that they ever made it that way, but it was a bit of overkill to tie two wires together. And in the G12 since the wires all had to junction at the point where the plug was inserted, three wires only needed to be used. I don't know what they actually did. But a 5-conductor cord was overkill for a company that counted every little tiny thing like WE. So I was wondering why they used that cord on a G handset.

Quote from: poplar1 on June 22, 2019, 10:19:56 PM
Many Trimline handset cords were only 4-conductor.
Attached is the Trimline handset cord I was recalling with five conductors. The later square button small modular Trimlines only used four-conductor handset cords, but they had LED lighting and didn't carry the 6.3 volts for the lamp. This cord in the picture is the one used on the G12 handset, I am assuming. If there was a 4-conductor version of this cord, I don't remember seeing one.

I looked up the Trimline BSP and they do only use four conductors to the handset unless there was a party line involved. But that cable usually had five conductors, just in case I suppose.
Jonathan

RotarDad

#7
This is a quote from page 182 of the third edition of Ralph O. Meyer's "Old-Time Telephones" book regarding the use of 4-conductors on the handset for the new model 500 phone.  The 500 had equalization using a varistor and other components to compensate for distance from the central office, which earlier models did not have.  I'm working to try to understand this stuff;  this book is a great, free download:

"Second, the handset now uses a four-conductor cord, and two of the conductors go to the same terminal (RW) in a seemingly redundant manner. There is a good reason for this, however. If a common conductor were used as in earlier circuits for one transmitter and one receiver terminal, the dc transmitter current would produce a small voltage across the length of that conductor. This voltage would then cause the varistor to have a lower resistance that could short-circuit the receiver. A typical handset conductor in good condition will have a resistance of about 3 ohms, and the typical transmitter dc current will be about 30 milliamperes. Under these conditions, the voltage across that conductor would be 0.09 volts. This would not be a problem as can be seen from Fig. A-6. However, in some cases one could readily expect the resistance to be as high as 10 ohms (the loop current can be higher, also), and in those cases the voltage would be 0.3 volts or more. From Fig. A-6, it is clear for those cases that the varistor would have a constant low resistance and shunt the voice signal around the receiver. By using a separate conductor for the receiver with no direct current in it, there is no dc voltage to produce an unwanted bias on the varistor. Thus, after almost 25 years of using circuits that minimize the number of conductors in the handset cord, the fourth conductor was finally added."
Paul

Babybearjs

I would have just changed out the handset to black...why go chasing after a white chassis? the handset is easier to obtain!
John

compubit

One of my "collections" is white phones.  Whereas I have a white 2851 with a modular handset, I do not have a white 851, though I now have a G12 handset as well as a light grey rotary faceplate.

I need some additional shelving so that I can put the white phones (50+ as of now) on display...

The cable provided with the phone has 4 conductors - 2 for the transmitter and 2 for the receiver.

On a side note, I believe that the square-button trimlines only use 2 connectors (and only have 2 wires in the modular jack), as the entire "phone", sans ringer, is essentially in the handset.

Jim
A phone phanatic since I was less than 2 (thanks to Fisher Price); collector since a teenager; now able to afford to play!
Favorite Phone: Western Electric Trimline - it just feels right holding it up to my face!

compubit

I forgot to mention that I do have a black 851 with the black G12 handset already.

J
A phone phanatic since I was less than 2 (thanks to Fisher Price); collector since a teenager; now able to afford to play!
Favorite Phone: Western Electric Trimline - it just feels right holding it up to my face!