I just saw this on CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/europe/hitler-phone-auction/index.html
It does have the look of a phone Satan himself might have used with the worn red paint......certainly a museum piece.
For the record, the back side of the phone is attached as well as a pdf printout of the article with its claims of authenticity and expected selling price range.
Quote from: RotarDad on February 02, 2017, 02:31:58 AM
I just saw this on CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/europe/hitler-phone-auction/index.html
It does have the look of a phone Satan himself might have used with the worn red paint......certainly a museum piece.
I'm sure Hitler would have bought the handset off eBay in the UK too.
Jack
One might think that a reputable auction house would notice the GPO handset, though I suppose that a British handset on this phone is not much stranger than the appearance of the two phones in this picture.
Larry
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on February 02, 2017, 06:44:58 AM
One might think that a reputable auction house would notice the GPO handset, though I suppose that a British handset on this phone is not much stranger than the appearance of the two phones in this picture.
Larry
I think the bunker phone is stranger by far as the two sides were at war. At that time the other two were allies. Even just after that, I don't think relations were so bad as to preclude some trade.
Jack
I really doubt that the phone would have marked with "adolf hitler" on its shell. German manufacturing loves to serializes all parts six ways to Sunday, but was not big on personal touches.
Quote from: Jack Ryan on February 02, 2017, 07:12:08 AM
I think the bunker phone is stranger by far as the two sides were at war. At that time the other two were allies. Even just after that, I don't think relations were so bad as to preclude some trade.
Jack
You'd be pretty surprised to see how much trading took place between the various factions in WWII. While still done through diplomatic back channels, trading of war time goods like rubber, optics, leather and other "hard to find items" was quite frequent between England and Germany. After all, business is business.
Quote from: Jack Ryan on February 02, 2017, 03:04:21 AM
I'm sure Hitler would have bought the handset off eBay in the UK too.
Jack
Perhaps that explains Rudolph Hess flying to England on a secret mission. Herr Hitler needed a handset! (Mr. Hess got a lovely phone inside a jail cell.) ; D
On a more serious note, wouldn't the red army have 'liberated' the phone when they took Berlin & the bunker? Seems like it would've been the property of some Russian soldier or officer. Given the post-war tensions and then the cold war...
How did it get from east to west? After the wall came down & USSR one for the history books? Details mention anything about its previous owners? From what little I know from the art world, auction houses & galleries usually have a chronology who who owned that priceless Rembrandt or whatever.
Just an observation.
--Bruce
Quote from: Slal on February 02, 2017, 03:23:08 PM
Details mention anything about its previous owners?
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17591.0;attach=156101
I found this on a German list:
Ich habe mal ein Buch von Rochus Misch, dem Telefoner der Reichskanzlei, gelesen. Er sagte aus, dass er im Bunker einen Handvermittlungsschrank bediente. Es ist zwar möglich, dass es sich um einen ZB- Glühlampenschrank handelte und dass dieser Wählfernsprecher daran betrieben wurde, nur halte ich OB- Betrieb wahrscheinlicher, da bei den Filmaufnahmen, die bei der Bunkeröffnung in den 80ern (?) gemacht wurden, im Zimmer des Selbstmordes Hitlers ein W/OB 35 ohne NrS stand.
Courtesy of Google Translate (unconfirmed translation): "I once read a book by Rochus Misch, the telephone of the Reichskanzlei. He said he served a hand-held cabinet in the bunker. It is possible that it was a ZB-incandescent lamp box and that this selector was operated on it, only I think OB operation more likely, as in the film recordings, which were made at the bunker opening in the 80's (?) In the room Of the suicide of Hitler a W / OB 35 without NrS stood."
So the real Bunker phone might have been magneto.
And shortly afterwards, this was posted by Geoff Mawdsley:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2617784/Inside-Hitlers-bunker-Photographs-reveal-blood-stained-furniture-debris-inside-hideaway-Adolf-Eva-Braun-died-fall-Berlin.html
Is shows a magneto phone.
This video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUoynfNkArM
contains a lot of speculation. Looped cord ends = plug-in - rubbish. Mobile phone for use in command vehicle - rubbish. Special handset design prevents it from jumping off - rubbish.
The Wehrmacht insignia may be real - I have seen telephone parts marked with it. Later on there was an ink stamp on the base. The Name "Adolf Hitler" is not engraved evenly - I don't think I would have liked to hand the man something less than perfect. My health may have suffered.
After much consideration, I don't think I shall bid.
Regards
Jack
This phone is highly suspicious. Even if it were unquestionably genuine, and I could afford to buy it, I wouldn't want anything touched by that murderous monster anywhere near me.
Larry
Did you see the booze on the table in the video?.....
That may help explain the old fellow's story.....just sayin
$243,000 sales price. Seems pretty crazy. There was an article earlier in the week refuting that this phone could have been Hitler's. Wish I could find the article now.
Here's a link to an article from CNN discussing the sale:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/20/europe/hitler-phone-sold/index.html
Some text from the article:
"The phone was recovered from the Fuhrerbunker in 1945 and has been kept in a box in an English country house ever since.
Made by Siemens as a black Bakelite phone, it was later painted red and engraved with Hitler's name and a swastika, the catalog says."
If we assume this was "the" bunker phone, perhaps the Russians had no interest in such items. Does anyone know when the Allies would have had access to the bunker for a British soldier to find it, (perhaps add the Hitler name), and carry it back to England? (Update - From what I found online, looks like the western allies had access a couple weeks afterward, and there are some good photos on the internet. A phone could certainly have survived.) We certainly know lots of small items came home with returning soldiers. It seems more likely that a soldier found a black phone with the Wehrmacht stamping, and brought it home to Engalnd as a small trophy of a hard-won war. Maybe the personalization, British handset, coat of red paint, etc were added much later.... If true, this phone deserves top billing in the "Notable Refurb" category, based on selling price alone..... ;)
Maybe they can find some old Hitler ear wax stuck in the receiver cap holes and test them for Der Führer's DNA. :P
I don't know about phones in the Fuhrerbunker but according to Hogan's Hero's, Stalag 13 had at least one AE34 in use! It only appears once in awhile on Klink's secretary's desk Frauline Hilga and later Frauline Helga.
Now I would pay a few hundred $ for a red 34!
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on February 20, 2017, 09:42:40 PM
I don't know about phones in the Fuhrerbunker but according to Hogan's Hero's, Stalag 13 had at least one AE34 in use! It only appears once in awhile on Klink's secretary's desk Frauline Hilga and later Frauline Helga.
Now I would pay a few hundred $ for a red 34!
Terry
I'll send you one, if you send me the check quickly. Oops, no checks.
PayPal only?
Good quality paint?
Maybe this has been brought up before, but here is a thought.
If you are Hitler and his group, holed up in a concrete bunker below Berlin, it does not make sense that you would pick up the phone and get a dial tone, so a dial phone seems a bit much. Even a PBX would have had to be staffed by someone, take up precious bunker space, and the risk of mechanical and electrical failure of a dial system would be great. For sure, there probably were no functioning dial (or manual) central offices left in Berlin in those final days either.
It does make sense to have very specific point-to-point magneto based communications that could be connected at the other end by field wire to field phones that could be moved from place to place during the heavy bombing.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on February 21, 2017, 01:26:44 PM
Maybe this has been brought up before, but here is a thought.
If you are Hitler and his group, holed up in a concrete bunker below Berlin, it does not make sense that you would pick up the phone and get a dial tone, so a dial phone seems a bit much. Even a PBX would have had to be staffed by someone, take up precious bunker space, and the risk of mechanical and electrical failure of a dial system would be great. For sure, there probably were no functioning dial (or manual) central offices left in Berlin in those final days either.
It does make sense to have very specific point-to-point magneto based communications that could be connected at the other end by field wire to field phones that could be moved from place to place during the heavy bombing.
Much of the telephone network in Berlin and other places was actually still operational after defeat, because they had built it under ground well protected from the destruction of bombardment. Hitler had a personal telephone operator, who stayed very close to him at almost all times, including in the bunker. This person actually wrote a book about his life and experience with Hitler. He died some years ago. The bunker had a separate communications room where this guy worked. For trips, he mentions that he took his switchboard with him, but I don't recall whether it is mentioned what kind it was.
Ah, OK. I think I read something about the comm guy some years back but forgot.
The commo man's name is Rochus Misch. Here is his information and his wartime picture.
He was a member of the Schutzstaffel (SS) and died in 2013.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochus_Misch
Last saturday a serious German newspaper finally wrote a piece about the serious issues this phone has and that it is fake.
Here is a link to the article:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/fachmann-sicher-das-hitler-telefon-ist-ganz-eindeutig-eine-faelschung-14893607.html
Interesting views on the matter by Frank Gnegel of the German museum of Telecommunication.
During the weekend it was picked up by several blogs and newspapers, among which the Daily Mail.
Now Fox news has confronted the auxtion house with the claims that this telephone is a fake.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2017/02/27/hitler-phone-controversy-auction-house-denies-fake-claim.html
(Oh, and I am quoted in these articles too. :-)
I wonder what the buyer is going to do now.......
Hire an attorney and file a sizeable law suit?
Quote from: Matilo Telephones on February 27, 2017, 03:37:13 PM
Here is a link to the article:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/fachmann-sicher-das-hitler-telefon-ist-ganz-eindeutig-eine-faelschung-14893607.html
Google Translate version of the above article:===========================
The Hitler telephone is clearly a fakeNearly 250,000 dollars have been paid by an unknown person for Adolf Hitler's telephone. Experts are convinced, however, that the story cannot be so true to the apparatus. Already with the listener it starts.
If in Germany someone knows with historical telephones, then Frank Gnegel. The Head of Department Collections at the Frankfurt Museum of Communication is responsible for one of the largest and most important telephone collections in Europe. 2000 standard appliances of the Reichspost, the Wuerttemberg Post and the Bavarian Post, which were used in the public telephone networks from 1881, are supplemented by private phones and devices from private branch offices. In addition, there is the first desk set from 1887 and the world's first telephone with dial.
A telephone that is not in the collection has changed the owner in the past days and made headlines: "In the United States was sold Adolf Hitler's old phone for 243,000 dollars," it was also on FAZ.NET. Gnegel now says, "It is clearly a fake." How does it come to this? "The actual telephone set was produced by Siemens & Halske, but the telephone receiver comes from an English telephone set. This was never produced. "His guess:" This must have been put together in England later. "
There was the apparatus for a long time: After Hitler's suicide and the fall of the "Third Reich" the telephone was allegedly found in the Berlin Führerbunker. According to the auction house, Russian soldiers first offered an Englishman the phone from Eva Braun. But because he wanted a red one, he had decided to use Hitler's phone, later inherited it to his son, who was now auctioning it.
"This claim is pretty stupid"On the Internet, collectors reported very early on the authenticity of the phone. On the homepage of a Dutch restorer of historical phones, a corresponding text appeared on February 2nd. In a supplement dated February 16, the author reports that his friend, who works in a telephone museum, wrote a letter to the auction house. Did the experts convince the respondent? "No," he writes. "On the contrary, I am more convinced that this was not Hitler's telephone."
As far as the auction house is concerned, it can be read in the "Addenda" ("Nachzutragenes"): The dealer agrees that the listener does not fit the rest of the phone. This is due to the fact that it is a special construction, the listener can not fall from the phone during the transport. The Dutch expert writes: "This claim is rather stupid." There are models that are specially designed so that the listener is particularly secure. And on the contrary, you clearly see that the British listener does not fit particularly well on the German telephone.
The auction house also writes that an independent subsidiary of Siemens in Great Britain, which had worked closely with the mother company in Germany until the beginning of the Second World War, had designed the receiver. Gnegel says: "Why should a company in Great Britain construct an earpiece for Hitler before the war? Siemens would certainly have built a new telephone for Hitler. "
Quote from: Matilo Telephones on February 27, 2017, 03:37:13 PM
Now Fox news has confronted the auxtion house with the claims that this telephone is a fake.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2017/02/27/hitler-phone-controversy-auction-house-denies-fake-claim.html
FoxNews Text of the above article, for posterity:===========================
Hitler phone controversy: Auction house denies fake claimA red phone described as the one Adolf Hitler used in his bunker was recently sold for $243,000 by a Maryland auction house. But was it actually the Fuhrer's phone?
The item comes with an incredible story: Made by Siemens, the phone— constructed of bakelite and painted red— came into the possession of a British officer named Brigadier Sir Ralph Rayner from the Soviets in early May, 1945, according to Alexander Historical Auctions. Sporting a swastika and Hitler's name, the phone has been called "arguably the most destructive 'weapon' of all time."
But while Bill Panagopulos, owner of Alexander Historical Auctions, vigorously defends the phone's provenance, some are now questioning the phone's legitimacy, claiming that the phone could be fake— or at least not Hitler's actual phone.
One of them is Frank Gnegel, of the Frankfurt Museum for Communication. "This is clearly a fake," he said, according to the German news site DW.com, which reported the expert's comments to the newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Gnegel cast doubt on a few aspects of the phone, like its handset (which wasn't made in Germany) and the fact it was painted red.
"Siemens would have built a proper example from dyed plastic, instead of unprofessionally painting over a black telephone," he said.
Another is Arwin Schaddelee, a Dutch telephone collector and blogger who has written about the phone in detail. He's also noticed aspects about the item that he thinks are suspect, like its handset, the dial, and the cord. He pointed out that it is a "W38" phone, which he said means that the phone was made for supply to the German post office at the time.
Schaddelee said that ultimately he does think the phone is German, but doubts it belonged to Hitler.
"This telephone never belonged to Hitler, but the engraving with the name and swastika on the back may very well be original," he wrote in an email to Fox News. He added: "Somebody found a damaged W38 with that engraving which made it interesting enough to repair it and tell an exciting war story about it."
But Panagopulos told Fox News that they "absolutely" stand by the phone's authenticity.
"We were utterly, and remain utterly convinced, that it's 100 percent," he said.
He defended the phone's details, as well as Rayner, the British signals officer credited with originally retrieving the phone, saying the man was respectable and had no need for money— and thus no incentive to peddle a fake.
But could it have been just a random Nazi phone, used in the bunker during that time period?
"Then there would have had to be an intent to deceive by Brigadier Rayner, a Member of Parliament, knighted by the Queen, [and] the highest British signals officer," Panagopulos said.
Panagopulos remains aggravated by the doubt cast on the phone, calling it preposterous.
"A lot of these guys are commenting on aspects of the phone that they know nothing about," he added.
http://www.matilo.eu/dial/english-hitlers-telephone-for-sale/?lang=en
My dad would probably say that this phone was a fake and that the Russians have the real one. They knew that the British officer would go for the red phone, so they swapped it out for a fake. They could've figured out how to get the parts they needed to create the fake. They made one mistake and put the wrong handset on it.
Quote from: Matilo Telephones on February 27, 2017, 03:37:13 PM
I wonder what the buyer is going to do now.......
......perhaps he'll do what Hitler was said to have done when feeling particularly exasperated ......... fall on the floor and chew the carpet.
(in the 'Dad's Army' television series, Home Guard commander Captain Mainwaring devised a plan to send adolf a poisoned hearthrug.)
An interesting link: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=902002
dsk
The July Issue of TCI's Singing Wires goes into this phone in detail. The conclusion is someone paid $243,000 for a fake.
Attached is the front page of that issue of Singing Wires and contains most of what was already said in this topic. The new and very interesting information about this phone is on pages 6 and 7 of the issue, available to members of TCI. You'll have to go there for the rest of the story.
There was also an article in the May edition of The Exchange. The conclusion was that the phone was a fake.
Regards
Jack
I just can't see how someone could plunk down such an immense figure on something that has no provenance whatsoever and is held to be genuine just because one believes it to be true hard enough. With so many fakes and forgeries swirling around those people and events, one would think that the buyer should have known better.
Quote from: 19and41 on July 18, 2017, 02:32:07 PM
I just can't see how someone could plunk down such an immense figure on something that has no provenance whatsoever and is held to be genuine just because one believes it to be true hard enough. With so many fakes and forgeries swirling around those people and events, one would think that the buyer should have known better.
Same feelings here but two questions:
1) can the buyer get their money back; and
2) was this a scam auction to transfer $243,000 less fees to someone for something nefarious?
That could make for another interesting story....
I would think someone with that much money to spend would be able to afford an expert to authenticate the item and a lawyer to enure he is not wasting his money. But then again lots of people have more money than sense.
I cannot imagine a single item, especially a rotary phone, being valued greater than a three bedroom house.
Depending on where you live of course, +/-.