Went and purchased another phone and subset box, so i don't have to rewire my other one that i have inquired about in another posting.
Well, looks like i'm getting in deep with these old vintage telephones now.
This system was advertised to work as is, by just plugging it in,so i went and bought it.
It does work, i get a dial tone, and i can dial out on my phone line here in the Sacramento area.
Now my problem with this phone is such low dial tone volume, and trying to hear the ringing of the dialed number, or trying to hear someone speaking to you at the other end, is pretty much impossible.
Something not wired correctly? Something missing? Mixed match of box & handset? I don't know.
Getting in over my head here with my other box, and now this problem with this one.
It's a 1936 model 202 phone, and the numbers on the subset box are.
L-1504-ASL
So right now i haven't a clue about what box it is. But i would venture to guess the phone and box aren't original mates to one another.
Any clues to the lack of volume problem?
Something that i can correct? Or throw in the towel?
Thank's guys.
hemi71x,
Could be someone didn't wire it right and just got it to work and it demagnetized the reciver.
Just a shot in the dark.
Kenny C.
Quote from: hemi71x on March 24, 2011, 05:23:22 PM
Went and purchased another phone and subset box, so i don't have to rewire my other one that i have inquired about in another posting.
Well, looks like i'm getting in deep with these old vintage telephones now.
This system was advertised to work as is, by just plugging it in,so i went and bought it.
It does work, i get a dial tone, and i can dial out on my phone line here in the Sacramento area.
Now my problem with this phone is such low dial tone volume, and trying to hear the ringing of the dialed number, or trying to hear someone speaking to you at the other end, is pretty much impossible.
Something not wired correctly? Something missing? Mixed match of box & handset? I don't know.
Getting in over my head here with my other box, and now this problem with this one.
It's a 1936 model 202 phone, and the numbers on the subset box are.
L-1504-ASL
So right now i haven't a clue about what box it is. But i would venture to guess the phone and box aren't original mates to one another.
Any clues to the lack of volume problem?
Something that i can correct? Or throw in the towel?
Thank's guys.
The number you posted is not familiar to me. Can you post a photo of the subset? Did you buy it locally or over e-Bay?
eBay purchase.
Automatic Electric Northlake, Illinois is the manufacturer of the box.
Here's some pictures.
Does the box have an induction coil under the terminal strip?. If not you are wired in series.There is not much room to install a modern network in that box
Robby
I think this one's an extension ringer, rather than a subset. This would have been mounted in some out-of-the-way place, to make it easier to know when the phone was ringing elsewhere in the house. It's not actually meant to be hooked to a telephone, but is rather a stand-alone piece of equipment.
isnt it AE?
Yup.
To modify my earlier post, these were also mated to telephones, but only to spacesavers which had networks inside them. No network = improper functionality.
So, what you guys are trying to tell me, this ain't gonna work properly either.
Guess i'm going to throw in the towel now for sure.
That's it for me. No more. I'm done.
Going to stick with what i know.
Old Mopar muscle cars, and parts.
Jim V.
Yeah that's an AE 32 Extension Ringer, not a subset. Now you have two phones and no subsets!
No need to give up but you need to find and buy the right thing. Buying a GM cylinder head to replace your cracked Mopar block isn't going to work not only because it isn't the right manufacturer but also because it isn't the correct item.
Terry
Was that same box also used for subsets? If so, it shouldn't be too difficult to add an induction coil and another capacitor and make that box into a subset. It would look like an AE subset on a WE phone, but the phone won't care.
Larry
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on March 24, 2011, 09:45:07 PM
Was that same box also used for subsets?
Yes the exact same box was available with an induction coil and second (or two in one) capacitor to make it a complete subset. The induction coil would be mounted under the terminal stip if it was a complete subset. A modern network would earlily fit inside the AE ringer box to make it a complete subset.
Terry
I'm sure rewiring the other box would be the easiest solution. It's already got an appropriate coil and condenser in it. The small coil just needs to come out.
Don't give up, Jim. We've all come up against something perplexing, but with a bit of help, we get through it, and come out on the other side with a bit more knowledge.
Ok guys.
Here's what i did.
I disconnected the cord that goes from this "ringer box" that plugs into the wall.
It has 4 wires to it. Green, Red, Yellow, Black.
I connected the Green wire to L1, the Red wire to L2 on the "subset" box in the picture below.
But i don't know where to connect the Yellow or the Black wires.
Now i get a good, strong dial tone, and i can dial out ok. I can clearly hear an incoming call that my friends message machine leaves.
BUT here's the problem.
I can't talk out, and nobody can hear me.
I suspect that's because the other wires aren't hooked up, or i have to disconnect or reconnect other wires to other locations, so that i can talk out.
Is there any location on this box that i can at least hook up the other two wires as a test and see if i can talk out?
Well, that's what i've been up to tonight. :)
The Black and Yellow leads that go to the telephone jack aren't needed. Just tape them up so they don't short anything out.
Are you certain that there is a transmitter in the handset of the phone?
Others will have to help you beyond that.
Terry
I think the handset would have to contain a transmitter element or there wouldn't be any reception at all. That's how the F1/HA1 element combination works.
Jim, you're getting close to having this fixed. Don't give up. Experts here can help, and the wiring diagrams from Bingster worked perfectly for my 202 and subset. There's no reason why your phone shouldn't be able to provide you with excellent transmission and reception quality.
The problem is likely related to wiring between the phone and the box. Make sure all of that matches the 202 dial service diagram, and if there are any terminals in the diagrams that you don't find on your subset, somebody here will be able to figure out which ones to use instead.
Don't give up! You'll be glad you didn't.
The first thing to do to get the big box in shape is to disconnect all the extraneous wiring that doesn't serve any purpose. The extra stuff can only complicate matters, and may very well prevent the subset from working on a standard line. As shown in the photo below, you'll want to:
- remove the short piece of white cable with it's colored conductors,
- remove the three heavy black conductors,
- unscrew the small coil from the base, and disconnect all of it's conductors, wherever they
terminate. You'll notice the small coil has a number of conductors cabled together with
string. Just follow the cable through the subset, and disconnect each conductor. You can
start a little telephone spare parts box, and put the coil in there.
After you've got all that removed, you can connect the wall cord and test it out. As Terry mentioned, only the red and green conductors in the wall cord are used. The yellow and black conductors serve no purpose and must not be connected to anything in the subset. I've drawn red and green lines to where the wall cord's conductors should go--green to L1 and red to L2.
bingster
Thank's for that color coded diagram on the picture.
Wish i knew how to do that with my computer, but that's a whole nuther story.
I did take away all those snipped off wires yesterday, and wired my wall wire to the L1 and L2 connections as instructed.
I had the green L1 wire hook up to the black terminal board yesterday.
Now i have them where you told me to hook them up.
Before i disconnect the wires for that 2nd coil, let me see if if what i did works or not on my connection.
I get a good strong dial tone, i can dial out, and can hear the call that i dialed ok.
But i have to wait for a decent hour in the morning before i can call my friends number to see if my speach can be heard, when i dial out.
Its only 6:00 am in the morning right now where i'm at.
"I'll be back" as Arnold would say, later this morning, to report on how it's going.
Thank's a lot.
Jim V.
Do you have voicemail? Try calling it and leaving yourself a message. Then try listening to the message. That's an easy way to test telephone transmission.
No, i don't have any voice mail, don't own any cell phones either.
This old dinosaur has two trimline, land line telephones in the house, and that's it, except for these old 202's that im messing around with now.
As suggested, i removed the 2nd coil, that is connected to a 2nd condenser in the subset box.
Didn't have to cut any wires or anything like that, to get them out. I surgically removed everything, and color coded all the terminal connections, if those components ever have to be reinstalled again.
I still have to make a test to see when i call out that my voice can be heard at the other end.
All my friends seem to be gone from their homes today.
Have to wait a little while longer to see if this experiment has worked or not.
Heck, just dial "0" and see if the operator can hear you and you can hear him/her.
Just got done messing around some more with this subset and phone.
Sorry to report that i haven't had any luck. or success. >:(
Nobody can hear me when i speak, but i can hear them great.
Plus the phone doesn't "ring" at all on an incoming call.
Thinking it might be the phone itself, or the handset, i hooked up my other 202 to this subset, as a troubleshooting test.
If anything i made it worse. It wouldn't break the dial tone, even though i wired the red, green, black, and very faded yellow, wires the same as i took off the originals.
So now i have the original 202 wired back into the original subset box.
Well, it's 50% working anyway. Get a good dial tone, i can dial out, i can hear them, but they can't hear me, and the bells don't ring.
Now what do i do? Save it for the next electronics recycling drive in Sacramento? Na, i can't do that.
Maybe FEDEX it out to one of you old telephone gurus out there in telephone land, to perform your skills with these old things.
Nobody has mentioned this yet but if the 202 has factory wires that are where they should be if I remember properly-
red to R on network
green to gn on network
yellow to L2y on network
black to bk on terminal strip.
red line cord from wall to L1
green line cord to L2y
try this.
There are diagrams on line somewhere
Robby
if you just connect the red and green wires you only put the rec in the circuit.you will not transmit
If you've followed Bingster's diagrams and are still having trouble, I don't know what else to advise other than to double and triple check connections at all points against those in the diagrams.
If you can't get transmission to work after all wiring has been confirmed to be correct and you get fed up, you might consider going up a notch to a 302 model. Everything is contained inside the case and they don't offer anywhere near the wiring problems associated with 102/202 and a subset. They're also very handsome phones that stay put when you dial them since they have the added weight of the network, coils and ringer assembly inside. The 302 offers a less dainty look than the oval base models but they do have a larger footprint.
And for sure there are members here who would be interested in your oval base models.
I am still confident that you'll get what you have working correctly, though. It sounds like a fairly simple wiring issue. But -- have you checked the transmitter capsules in the handset? Maybe you have a bad one, or the contacts inside the handset have been bent and one of them isn't making contact with the capsule.
Also, I know that there have been polarity issues reported here (I have experienced them) with model 2500 touch-tone phones that won't break dialtone. Switching the L1 and L2 connections from the wall will usually fix it. I don't know if the same applies for rotary phones like yours, but others here can advise.
Hemi:
I would be glad to get it working for you for no cost except for the fact that you'd have to send it to Walla Walla, Wa both ways.
Quote from: Phonesrfun on March 25, 2011, 08:49:41 PM
Hemi:
I would be glad to get it working for you for no cost except for the fact that you'd have to send it to Walla Walla, Wa both ways.
OK, Bill
I'm going to take you up on that suggestion. (offer)
Your only one state away anyway, up nothbound I-5.
But i'm going to pay you for your labors and time.
Can't expect you to perform your services for free.
You have to buy gas, groceries, pay the bills too.
In that case i need your address.
I use the FEDEX guys, as i have an account with them, for my car parts sales, and stuff that i rebuild, then put up for sale.
Jim Valuckas
hemi71x@aol.com is my regular e mail address.
Bill,
Since this has been such a puzzler, please let us know what you find and how you fix it.
Thanks,
Ralph
I hope I'm not interrupting, but I'm new here and have been trying to resolve a similar issue with my 202 (low volume on reception only).
I am using a "newer" 2500 as a subset, wired up according to Bingster's diagram. Everything works as it should, but the receiver volume. It's there but really faint. I have removed both ear piece and mouth piece and cleaned the contact surfaces with a pencil eraser - no change. Any advice here would be helpful. Let me know if you want to see how I wired it all...
Thanks!
A picture of the wiring always helps.
Sorry Stingo, I'm a little out of my depth with low volume issues. If you've double-checked the wiring and it's okay, it'll take somebody with a bit more knowledge than I have. Not to worry, I'm sure we'll get it sorted out.
Quote from: Kenny C on April 09, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
A picture of the wiring always helps.
Thanks for responding Kenny... Here goes.... Per a different thread,
"A 500 or 2500 base may also be used as a subset, in which case the diagram labeled "685 Subset" is used. When using a 500 or 2500 base as a subset, all the switch hook wires which are soldered to the network should either be unsoldered or snipped off. Because of this alteration to the network, only a base which has no value and which is unfit or truly not needed for regular telephone service should be used. If you don't wish to unsolder or snip the soldered wires (and that's understandable), they may be left in place, but the switch hook arm must then be tied in the down position. Using one of these bases as a subset also requires a jumper wire to be connected between network terminals "RR" and "L1". Any short piece of thin wire will work for this."I did this.
Then I wired up the mounting cord from my 202 (4 wire) to the subset (see my 2 dimensional diagram below and the 685 diag below)... Due to my 2500 base being a newer 2500, there is no terminal on the board labeled "BK" for the Black wire. Bingster advised me to secure it to the "C" terminal, as shown in my diagram. Thanks!!
Quote from: bingster on April 09, 2011, 04:18:18 PM
Sorry Stingo, I'm a little out of my depth with low volume issues. If you've double-checked the wiring and it's okay, it'll take somebody with a bit more knowledge than I have. Not to worry, I'm sure we'll get it sorted out.
Thanks! :)
Do you have any pictres of the inside of the phone?
Here you go....
Notice the new mounting cord, as the original one was next to impossible to strip and solder....
You know it slipped my mind but if this phone was used without a subset it could have messed it up.
I am not sure if the recivers in F1 handsets can de-magnetize. Can they bing?
How about with a degaussing coil, like I used to use on old color TVs???
Another suggestion is to clean the contacts in the handset.
And another is try bending the contacts upwards. I read on here somewhere that they get pushed down after a while and can have limited contact with the elements.
I could send you a F1 reciver if you don't find out what is wrong
Bingster,
If he is getting faint dial tone could it be a break in the handset cord?
Already cleaned the contacts and prongs in both earpiece and mouthpiece... Everything works but it's just real faint. Remember how when you could actually talk into the earpiece and they could hear you? It's almost just like that is going on. I'm wondering about the receiver wiring.... But heck, I'm a newbie :) I could also rewire the handset, but I hate to cannibalize the original cord... If you have a good F1 receiver I could use to test with I'll give you an addy... I would pay you for it if it fixes it plus the shipping .... Thx :)
PM me your address I will try and get it out this week
I think I see the problem. The black mounting cord conductor is connected to the "BB" contact on the dial, when it should be connected to the "BK" contact along with the black conductor of the handset cord. Move that conductor and see what happens.
Quote from: Kenny C on April 09, 2011, 08:11:36 PM
I am not sure if the recivers in F1 handsets can de-magnetize. Can they bing?
They don't seem to be susceptible to the same damage that the older diaphragm type receivers are. It's more of an audio quality issue with an F handset.
Quote from: bingster on April 10, 2011, 04:06:29 PM
I think I see the problem. The black mounting cord conductor is connected to the "BB" contact on the dial, when it should be connected to the "BK" contact along with the black conductor of the handset cord. Move that conductor and see what happens.
Quote from: Kenny C on April 09, 2011, 08:11:36 PM
I am not sure if the recivers in F1 handsets can de-magnetize. Can they bing?
They don't seem to be susceptible to the same damage that the older diaphragm type receivers are. It's more of an audio quality issue with an F handset.
Like this?
Move the small black wire of the mounting cord to the BK terminal?
Bingster, I moved it but then it was worse. So I moved it back. Even when the black wire is not connected I get the same volume.
As a side note, when I installed the new mounting cord, I connected it exactly the way the old one was so I naturally assumed it was wired correctly.
People tend to get in phones and move things around. Sort of the way tinkerers can't resist taking clocks apart. What I meant was move the small black wire of the mounting cord to the BK terminal on the dial, which is one terminal over toward the left of where it is now.
I just posted a post then promptly deleted it, as I misunderstood what Bingster was saying and I mis-interpreted the photo. Yes, the black deskset cord and the black handset wire both need to be on the BK terminal on the dial.
To recap:
Black mounting cord wire and black handset should both go to BK on the dial. BK on the hookswitch goes to Y on the dial via the jumper wire. W on the hookswitch to BB on the dial via the other jumper wire. Red from the handset and red from the deskset cord both go to R on the dial. White receiver cord goes to W on the dial. Green deskset cord to GN on the hookswitch. Yellow from the deskset cord to Y on the hookswitch.
Looks like Stingo needs some spade tips and a suitable crimper for the small tips.
I have been reading the mail on this thread, but unable to participate due to an overwhelming work schedule.
Okay, just did that and it's worse than the way I had it connected. :) Sorry..... (I am staring this thing apart. Something that might help me a great deal is to understand the terminals and their labeling logic...
L1
L2
RR
C (instead of BK as you advised in an earlier post)
No, not inside the 2500 subset. Only within the body of the phone. The black mounting cord conductor that you have connected to BB on the dial is supposed to be attached to BK on the dial. Just move that one wire and you may completely fix your problem.
I will take a 2500 with a printed circuit-type network and try to duplicate what you have going, Stingo.
More to come....
Thanks phonesrfun.....
@bingster: I haven't moved anything in the subset.... no worries. I DO understand what you are saying, and I have done that but it does not fix anything. Only made it fainter. Remember where these wires are coming from (the subset).
The reason I asked about the subset labeling is to better understand the circuitry.
Subset R - Base R
Subset GN - Base GN
Subset L2 - Base Y
Subset C - Base BK (this is what baffles me because connecting it to BK makes it worse than if I connect it where the original black was)... But I'll go with it.
There is no BK on any circuit board. But, it should have a B. Can you check for that? My late model 2500 has a slightly different layout than yours, but it does have a B terminal. B is what you want. Can you check before we go any further?
Ok, I see what you're saying now. I just wanted to make sure you weren't confusing the two BK terminals inside the phone (the BK terminal on the springs and the BK terminal on the dial).
Quote from: Phonesrfun on April 10, 2011, 10:58:13 PM
There is no BK on any circuit board. But, it should have a B. Can you check for that? My late model 2500 has a slightly different layout than yours, but it does have a B terminal. B is what you want. Can you check before we go any further?
No B.
Before YOU go further, let me draw an EXACT layout of the board and terminals - minus the wires. I sent you a PM but hold off until I get the drawing done and I will post it here. I don't want to waste anyone's time :) Thanks!
Here is the problem. It does not matter whether you hook the black wire to the B or the C terminal. What is causing the problem is that one of the switches in the 2500 hookswitch is there to shunt the receiver when the hookswitch is down. This is done in the 2500 and the 500 phones to help eliminate loud clicks in the receiver when hanging up. You left the hookswitch connected thinking that if it were "hung-up", it would be completely out of the picture. Not so. There should be a slate colored wire on the 2500 coming from the hookswitch going to the "R" terminal on the network board. I believe if you disconnect that, you will find that it works.
Also, to reiterate, the other end of the black wire in the mounting cord going from the "subset" to the phone body should be connected to the BK terminal on the dial along with the black wire from the handset. BK is the second from the left on the arched terminal board on the back of the dial.
-Bill
You were correct, Bill. It works now!
I unhooked the slate (grey) wire from the R terminal and the volume is about normal.... Not LOUD by any means but probably for a 202, normal :)
Now I am going to clean up all the connections, assemble it all, then I will work on replicating the mounting cord so it looks more original.
Thanks to Bingster for being so kind to the newbie! and for the great help!
Thanks to Kenny C and happy belated 15th birthday!
Thanks to Bill for hitting the nail on the head. I just never thought to disable the switch hook :)
Fully functional :) :)
After speaking with Bill Geurts (phonesrfun) on the phone, we both talked further regarding the volume issue, as we both felt that though it was greatly improved after disconnecting the switch hook wire (slate color), he thought it should be louder. He suggested disabling the touch tone key pad from any of the terminals on the subset board that are being used by the mounting cord wires. Rather than mess with the terminals on the main board, one by one I unplugged wires from the back of the keypad and when I pulled the orange wire, the volume almost doubled, to a level I feel is GREAT.
So, in summary, looks like I had the mounting cord wired correctly to the subset, but failed to disconnect the switch hook and keypad wiring. The following corrective measures taken to restore the volume:
1. Disconnect the slate colored (gray) switch hook wire from the R terminal on the subset board (this disables the switch hook and improves continuity).
2. Disconnect orange wire from the back of the touch tone key pad (improves continuity).
Thanks again!
Bill has been involved in making more telephones work than you can shake a handset at. Good job, guys!
Thanks Darrin.... It was a great way to get initiated in the old phone hobby business... I haven't even been at this a week! :D
BTW, one correction from my post above, I did have to reconnect the Orange wire, as disabling it also disabled the transmitter :D However disconnecting other wires while having the phone hooked up "live" did prove to improve the volume to normal.
I went through and put spade connectors on everything and reassembled the 2500 as the subest, and tested everything :thumbup: :D