Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Pay Station Telephones => Pay Phone Locks and Keys => Topic started by: shortrackskater on May 21, 2016, 07:15:59 PM

Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 21, 2016, 07:15:59 PM
A lengthy discussion of this phone as purchased can be found at this link on the forum:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16166.0  ---  This topic contains a discussion of all restoration work done to this phone.

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This is my AE I recently bought on ebay (with the Gray lower housing).
I was able to perfectly drill out one screw and right "on schedule" it screwed its way and dropped into the inside.
However, the other screw wasn't so nice. It's hardened. I was able to grab it with some vice grips and start it turning inward. I then had the brilliant (pun intended) idea of carving a slot into it and turn it into a screw. I used the center punch and punched a line, then filed a crude slot in it. The problem is now it binds up inside and won't drop in. I think my mistake was the vice grips probably mushroomed it out a bit. I've tried filing and beating it with the center punch but it just stops.
Ugh... what have I done? Any ideas? I can deepen the grove a little more but really can't get enough torque with my screwdriver.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: RotarDad on May 21, 2016, 08:13:53 PM
Can you turn the screw back out so you clean up the "mushrooming"?  It might be easiest to use a Dremel to quickly buzz down the metal.  With a thin cut-off wheel in the Dremel, you could also clean up the slot for your screwdriver.....
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 21, 2016, 08:26:50 PM
It will turn back and I tried filing it down but my files are cheap and don't work too well. I wasn't sure what I would need with a hardened screw. It's unbelievable how EASY the first one was... soft as butter, then it just screwed out like nothing.
I think I finally need to break down and buy a dremel. I also have a decent DeWalt cordless drill but I'm not sure if they make a cutoff wheel that will work well in it.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: TelePlay on May 21, 2016, 08:56:45 PM
Quote from: shortrackskater on May 21, 2016, 08:26:50 PM
I think I finally need to break down and buy a dremel. I also have a decent DeWalt cordless drill but I'm not sure if they make a cutoff wheel that will work well in it.

You need the small size and high speed of the dremel with their cut off wheels.

And, a variable speed dremel is better that an on/off type in that slower speeds come in handy for certain things. I had to buy an inline speed control (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14569.0) to slow mine down at that was the best money I've spent in some time on a tool.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 21, 2016, 09:19:17 PM
Mark
That technique requires a drill press with a large amount of torque. A hand drill won't cut it if the screws have really been tightened even if they aren't hardened. You were lucky that the screws were not really tightened because the phone wasn't assembled by AE at their factory.

Short of buying a drill press, a Dremel tool with a carbide cutting disk is the only way to do it. You cut a slot in the end and use a screw driver to back out the screw.

Your drill will probably be fast enough to use with a Dremel carbide wheel or a narrow grinding stone that comes to a point (also made by Dremel). Grind around THE EDGE of the screw where it mushroomed. You'll probably be able to get it out.

I just received a Dremel motor tool today that I won on Ebay a few days ago Ebay 152093995701 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dremel-Moto-Tool-Drill-Press-210-/152093995701). Actually I was looking for an extra drill stand. The Dremel was icing on the cake. I try to have a few of them on hand at all times. I burn out A LOT of them. I routinely check Ebay and buy them if they're cheap enough. Older single speed models can be bought for as little as $10.
Stan S.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 21, 2016, 09:40:48 PM
Thanks everyone.
I think I'm headed to Harbor Freight or Home Depot tomorrow. I'm too impatient for Ebay right now although I know there's some good deals there.
It's actually loose enough for the housing to move considerable enough to see there's no lid on the cash can. But it's not quite loose enough to get one of my elbow screwdrivers in there.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 22, 2016, 08:51:26 PM
were the heads stripped, or they just wouldn't turn? next time hit them with some penetrating oil and hit them for a couple seconds with a propane torch. a lot of times that's enough to get them to budge, if they aren't a rusted mess.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 22, 2016, 09:52:25 PM
This was the back of the screw, that I was attempting to screw to the inside. I had notched the butt end but I "mushroomed" the end when I was pounding out a slot in it. Obviously I've never done this before.
I just bought at attachment and cutting wheel for my drill motor and will try grinding off the mushroomed part , then see if it will screw through and drop in.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 22, 2016, 10:30:16 PM
I cant say from experience about automatic electrics, but on Western Electric three slots if you take off the back and he cash box is still in it, you have to destroy the cash box to be able to reach the lock screws and get the lock off. is it worth it?
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 23, 2016, 07:01:19 PM
I read on a thread here that it was better to sacrifice the can on on AE, rather than the lock, although I'd still need to have a key made for mine. From what I see so far, my can has no lid on it. I don't know if that makes it easier or not. But from what I read, the "surgical" can removal was the best approach. Later today I'm going to try grinding off the one stinkin' screw that's resisting me and hopefully get it to drop in. Then at least I can remove the back.  :)
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 23, 2016, 07:18:39 PM
Mark
Assuming you can get the last screw out, the coin can without the locking top will slide out from the back.
You will have to buy a new lock for the vault. Each of those locks had two matching keys. Each lock was keyed differently.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: rdelius on May 23, 2016, 07:20:59 PM
If the can has a lid ,it could be moved to a cheeper lidless one.You might be able to get the lock rekeyed or modified but do not know who does this since Paul Vaverchack died.Note that newer cans for single slot paystations are taller but the lids will interchange
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 23, 2016, 07:27:33 PM
Well, not having a lid will help. You probably can push ot down gar enough to clear the coin box rail and slide ot out the back.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 23, 2016, 07:32:32 PM
You guys are FAST responders ! Thanks.
There is no lid on the can. From what I read, I did remember that a lidless can would come out, which is good to hear.
I thought there was someone, living, who re-keyed  these? If it's not worth it (I'm not restoring this to original, just working) I'll just get another vault lock like I did for my newer AE. I wonder if the lock is original Gray? Does it matter in value?
I do want to get a coin controller eventually and am in the process of getting the parts I need to make the phone an AE other than the Gray vault and housing.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: poplar1 on May 23, 2016, 09:14:06 PM
Automatic Electric 10-L locks (with matching keys)  for the door are getting difficult to find, and will probably cost $35 or  more. So it's probably worth paying to have a key made.

Western 30-C and Northern 22-B (?) locks are much cheaper, usually $15 or less. But they won't fit your AE door.

Edited:
Stan is correct on this.
Don't know if Dick Pitzer is reworking the locks to work with orphaned keys, but he has suspended operations pending a move. There are Automatic Electric keys available sometimes, if you can find someone to rebuild your lock (the correct way)  to match one of these orphan keys.  I believe Sonny has a few keys (but no matching locks).


Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 23, 2016, 09:37:00 PM
Thanks again, everyone. Thanks for the link TelePlay.
Good news!
I bought a small cutting wheel, and cut it smaller with tin snips, then rounded it out with a file.
I then attached my modified wheel to my DeWalt cordless driver and grind around the mushroomed part of the screw and then, more importantly, cut a deeper slot in it. FINALLY got the thing to screw in.
The lidless can came out with not much effort: I just gently pulled the top part side to side, then I used a pain can opener and gently pried the bottom just over the edge of the lower part of the case. I sprayed some WD40 on that lower part and pulled it out with my hands. No damage to the can.
I'll remove the lock now. I guess I should post a different subject of the lock.
It is a 10-L  Looks old as heck.
THANK YOU EVERYONE. You're all GREAT!!!
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 24, 2016, 01:02:13 AM
Mark
It's impossible to manufacture a key for a 10L lock. A 10L lock has both pins and levers. 10L key blanks were proprietary even when they were being manufactured. The blanks probably haven't been made for 40 years.

To make a 10L lock useful you have to re-manufacture THE LOCK to match whatever 10L key can be found. If you're lucky you find two keys with matching numbers.

Ask questions about how the lock was rebuilt. Below is a posting I made a while back.


Quote from: Stan S on March 16, 2016, 09:23:42 AM

I only know of two individuals who properly re-leavered 10L locks in the past. All the proper pins and ALL the properly numbered leavers. Locks opened and closed as smooth as silk. Unfortunately, the best of these two craftsman passed away. His name was Paul Vaverchak. The second best guy got lazy and doesn't do them anymore-me.

The re-leavered locks I see today are junk. Most of the time they only have one or two leavers with the slots widened out. Then a washer and a coil spring are slid over the post on top of the leavers to put backwards pressure on them. If the orphaned key (keys) they used don't match the pins, they just dump the pins in the garbage. Then they pop the cover back on and it's off to Ebay. PURE CRAP!

If the key and the lock number don't match, unless you have xray vision you don't know what you're getting and you probably don't want it!
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 24, 2016, 01:22:48 AM
So is reply #16 incorrect?
Is there any replacement available that will work? I just want to be able to lock it, and don't care how old or new the lock is.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 24, 2016, 02:02:48 AM
There aren't any replacements.

Original 10L locks with keys can be found. Be prepared to spend probably $60 for one.

There are plenty of rebuilt 10L locks on Ebay. If the lock has been opened it's been rebuilt.
Ask if the pins are still in the lock and if it has the proper number of leavers.

Some sellers dump all the pins and leavers out of the locks. Any key that fits in the keyway (or a screw driver) will open and close those locks. All depends on what you'll be happy with.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: AE_Collector on May 24, 2016, 12:18:49 PM
I just renamed this topic and Mark is going to carry on here in this topic with his restoration of this payphone.

Terry
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 25, 2016, 09:48:59 PM
Thanks Terry!
I'm happy. I'll carry on here. I just spent some time fixing the upper lock which literally fell apart when I removed it! Someone ground the rivets out apparently and the keyhole was turned downward so my new 29s key wouldn't fit. I somehow got it back together and screwed it back in. Now the key and lock work! Next I cleaned the inside of the lower part once I got the cash box out. There was one dime jammed in there and it wasn't even old!
In the meantime I cleaned up screw holes in the base and was actually able to reuse the original screws. One has a small hole in the bottom and the other has a slot in the bottom! I reattached it as it was originally and it's looking better now, especially with it's bottom "openable."
I'm now working on getting the parts Stan S recommended in the initial detailed post, where I wondered what the heck I bought.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 26, 2016, 11:33:14 AM
More than likely someone turned your lock into a dummy lock, if they already opened it. bet it turns with a screwdriver. I'm starting t think dummy locks on these phones isn't a bad idea. I mean not too many locksmiths around who can actually fix these locks, and I'm sure as they retire, the key banks that may still exist will disappear, along with the knowledge on how to make those type of keys as those types of keys aren't used much, anymore.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 26, 2016, 11:52:19 AM
Yes I think so. It didn't really look like a lock inside. Just three tabs with a hole in them, and what looked like a hard wire welded on. I'd have no idea how that would work. I couldn't find anything close to an exploded view of this kind of lock. I'd still like to see one.
But when I reassembled it, the key went in and it acted like a real lock at least.

UPDATE: later in this thread, I realized it was complete, and it works. Still don't know why it was opened.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 26, 2016, 02:11:16 PM
Folks
The pictures below are what should be in a top lock.
What's in the pictures is just a representation using parts from different manufacturers.
I just grabbed what was handy.

The back is a Western 10H.
The nose piece is a Northern 21B.
The leavers are all the same number. This would never be the case .

The number stamped on the leaver conform to the position of the slit in the leaver to its left edge.
The slit and the number conform to the depth of each cut in the key.

When the proper key is turned clockwise it moves the leavers to the right, this lets the 'gate' (attached to the bolt) slide down into the slits in the leavers. The bolt moves down and the lock opens.

If you throw the leavers in the garbage and put a coil spring on the post (part that went through the leavers), the spring will put backwards pressure on the bolt assembly when the cover is put back on the lock.
Then ,when the nose piece is turned (with anything) the bolt will slide up and down. This locks or unlocks the lock with zero security.
This is the way most of the top locks (21B, 10G, 10H and 29S) you see on Ebay are 're-keyed' to work.

10L vault locks are the same. Except they have a set of pins, adding another level of security.
The waves on the bottom surface of a 10L key conform to the code for these pins.

Throw the pins in the garbage along with the leavers, put the cover back on the lock and you're an Xspurt* Ebay
locksmith.

* X is an unknown quantity.
spurt is a drip under pressure.

Stan S.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 26, 2016, 03:11:00 PM
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Stan S,
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: shortrackskater on May 26, 2016, 03:18:54 PM
Thanks Stan!
That helps tremendously. So I DO have a complete lock.
When I turn the key, I feel tension, then the case pops open. So I must have put it back together properly?
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 26, 2016, 06:24:46 PM
Stan, since you said the leaves were numbered. I would assume they would put a pile of different numbered leaves, and the number of the leave dictated the depth of cut in the key.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 26, 2016, 08:02:29 PM
Tony
The number on the leaver does tell you the depth of the cut in the key.

When I was rebuilding a lot of 10L locks, after a few hours I could look at a key and tell you the numbers of the leavers to use for all the cuts in the key. Didn't always get it exactly 100% but came close enough for the key to open and close the lock with a little resistance.

There's a trick to overcoming the resistance if the leavers aren't perfect after the lock is assembled. It requires a heavy hammer. You position the lock sitting on its serial number with the bolt out and facing up. You turn the key very slowly until you reach the point of resistance then SLAM THE TOP EDGE OF THE BOLT WITH THE HAMMER. After you do this a few times you wear away the edge of the cut in the leaver that isn't exactly right.

Anyway, in a previous post I said that I was the second best at rebuilding these locks. The best, Paul Vaverchak, always got it perfect the first time, with no tricks.

If you don't have much experience you put the leavers in the lock body one at a time. The first leaver you install is the cut in the key nearest the bow (back of the key). You hold the lock body in one hand and with the other hand you turn the key slid in the nose piece. If the first leaver matches the cut in the key the gate will fall into the slot. Then you install the second leaver and do the same thing. Eventually you will have all the leavers installed in the lock body that match the key cuts and you will be able to turn the key with the gate falling into the cuts in all the leavers. Then you put the cover on the lock body and peen the two tabs in the back of the lock. FINISHED!

That was the easy half of the story. The difficult half is installing the proper pins in the nose piece so they match the 'waves' on the lower surface of the 10L keys. A story for another time.

Automatic Electric had a huge machine that stuffed the leavers and pins in 10L locks and at the same time cut the matching keys. I was told the speed of this machine was mind boggling. All done mechanically with no computers.

Most people think the number on the key and the lock are a code, not true. The number is only the number of locks and keys that were produced. The numbers don't refer to any code.

10L locks don't look like much but I'll bet you they have a level of security that's higher than the lock on your front door.

Stan S.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 26, 2016, 08:59:38 PM
"If you don't have much experience you put the leavers in the lock body one at a time. The first leaver you install is the cut in the key nearest the bow (back of the key)".

Correction
The first leaver you put in the lock body is the first cut at the tip of the key. The last leaver is the cut nearest the bow of the key.

That's better.
Stan S.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 26, 2016, 09:06:31 PM
Are all 3 slot upper housing locks keyed alike for their respective makers? Or are they different and those keys we get on ebay supposed to be a master key of sorts?
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: Stan S on May 26, 2016, 09:35:57 PM
Tony
Yes, they are universal for each manufacturer. They aren't unique like the vault keys.
The physical construction of all the upper housing locks regardless of the manufacturer is the same.
However, they are keyed differently.
Western Electric -10G and 10H
Northern Electric -21B
Automatic Electric -29S

The Western and Northern keys have a very deep cut. This cut isn't for a lever, it's called a ward (not sure of the spelling). It's a fixed spacer. I didn't bother explaining that.
Automatic Electric locks don't have this deep cut.

A suggestion.
The tips of the soft brass reproduction 10G and 21B keys being sold on Ebay (with the deep cut) are weak and bend and will eventually break off, usually in the lock. That's enough to ruin your day!

Since Automatic Electric keys have very shallow cuts they are much stronger. Unless you are a purist you are better off putting 29S locks in all your payphones.
Stan S. 
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 26, 2016, 09:42:48 PM
I was thinking the same thing about the deep cut in the 10g key.  Even a 21b too? Is doesnt have quite as deep a cut as the 10g.

I actually was thinking of this and saying i might better luck with the 10s locks on my phones.
Title: Notes on Payphone Locks
Post by: trainman on May 26, 2016, 09:53:11 PM
There is a rekeyed 21b on ebay now. I compared it to a NE 21B key and the one on ebay was rekeyed to eliminate that deep cut.

I already broke a repro 10g key in a dummy lock, but thats because it was jammed, but i sure dont want to do that in a real lock. I like the advice about using the 29s locks.