This is a beauty, plungers match. Must have been an employee retirement phone. 10/41 WOW!!...Doug
http://tinyurl.com/qzp5jtk
Wow, that is nice!!
That's the first prewar one I've seen in green!!
contest phone, I'm thinking....
I second that emotion!!
I third it!
I saw that when it went up a few days ago, it's on my watch list. Very Nice! Did search for LLoyd Parsons, did not come up with anything solid. Is there a reference for Bell employees anywhere?
Quote from: HarrySmith on April 07, 2015, 09:06:15 PM
I saw that when it went up a few days ago, it's on my watch list. Very Nice! Did search for LLoyd Parsons, did not come up with anything solid. Is there a reference for Bell employees anywhere?
Maybe possible to narrow the search to the region where the phone lived?
The phone's pre-war, so Lloyd Parsons may have been with the phone company a very long time ago, which is just going to make a Google search more vague.
Quote from: Russ Kirk on April 07, 2015, 08:27:52 PM
I third it!
And I fourth'd it . . .
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14125.0
Quote from: Doug Rose on April 07, 2015, 07:16:15 AM
This is a beauty, plungers match. Must have been an employee retirement phone. 10/41 WOW!!...Doug
http://tinyurl.com/qzp5jtk
What makes it special to be a retirement phone?
Quote from: Partyline4 on April 12, 2015, 04:01:17 PM
What makes it special to be a retirement phone?
The brass engraved "Llyod C. Parsons" name plate riveted on the front below the dial might suggest that. Could be something else. I still say the person who bought the phone for $611.11 either knows of, knew or knows the relatives of Mr. Parsons and the story behind the phone.
Neat-o!
The winning bidder on that phone is one of the deep pocket buyers that always get the phone he wants.
Quote from: TelePlay on April 12, 2015, 04:05:24 PM
Quote from: Partyline4 on April 12, 2015, 04:01:17 PM
What makes it special to be a retirement phone?
The brass engraved "Llyod C. Parsons" name plate riveted on the front below the dial might suggest that. Could be something else. I still say the person who bought the phone for $611.11 either knows of, knew or knows the relatives of Mr. Parsons and the story behind the phone.
I know the buyer and I will ask him...Doug
Quote from: Doug Rose on April 12, 2015, 05:00:35 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on April 12, 2015, 04:05:24 PM
Quote from: Partyline4 on April 12, 2015, 04:01:17 PM
What makes it special to be a retirement phone?
The brass engraved "Llyod C. Parsons" name plate riveted on the front below the dial might suggest that. Could be something else. I still say the person who bought the phone for $611.11 either knows of, knew or knows the relatives of Mr. Parsons and the story behind the phone.
I know the buyer and I will ask him...Doug
looking forward to the story.
QuoteWhat makes it special to be a retirement phone?
What makes it special to me is that it's pre-war. The pre-WWII color 302s have unique characteristics that aren't present in color 302s produced after the war.... and that pre-war production ended not long after it began due to the war. These don't come along often, especially in colors other than ivory.
Doug- thanks for sharing. That really is a great-looking 302. I didn't realize they made colored thermoplastic 302s prior to the war.
I heard back from my friend who bought the green 302. He purchased it because of the rarity of a color of a pre-war 302. He now has three, an Ivory and an Old Rose. He is a great guy. He did Google L Parsons out of curiosity, but it was the phone and not LParsons why he purchased it
I pointed him to the Forum and maybe he will come on board...Doug
Quote from: Doug Rose on April 13, 2015, 06:16:07 PM
He purchased it because of the rarity of a color of a pre-war 302.
An honest question here since I'm not up on color 302s. Other than the F1 transmitter dated 10/41, what else in the eBay listing would indicate that this is indeed a pre-war phone. The transmitter is easily inserted/exchanged and without seeing the inside dates, how can one or what do the color 302 experts see that make this a pre-war 302. Just trying to learn here.
Quote from: TelePlay on April 13, 2015, 06:26:47 PM
Quote from: Doug Rose on April 13, 2015, 06:16:07 PM
He purchased it because of the rarity of a color of a pre-war 302.
An honest question here since I'm not up on color 302s. Other than the F1 transmitter dated 10/41, what else in the eBay listing would indicate that this is indeed a pre-war phone. The transmitter is easily inserted/exchanged and without seeing the inside dates, how can one or what do the color 302 experts see that make this a pre-war 302. Just trying to learn here.
The plungers are one thing to spot; they're full-color instead of clear or black. Another thing is the level of transparency. The prewar plastic 302 housings were translucent, even more so than the postwar plastics. These plastic housings were apparently unstable, and this lead to cracking and warping in unsuitable conditions.
Sound familiar? :o
The prewar 302 housings were apparently worse than the postwar ones when it came to cracking and shrinking. After all, this was the first time WE used colored thermoplastic housings, and they were far from perfect.
Quote from: TelePlay on April 13, 2015, 06:26:47 PM
Other than the F1 transmitter dated 10/41, what else in the eBay listing would indicate that this is indeed a pre-war phone.
Also, the handset handle does not have an insert, but instead is one piece.
The finger stop is longer, and the P-208941 finger wheel is thicker than those produced from 1947 up.
Wow, that fingerwheel looks REALLY thick. I don't think I've ever handled one on a colored 302 set before - so I don't know how it compares - but the one pictured looks like a really solid piece of plastic.
Quote from: savageje on April 13, 2015, 07:29:52 PM
Wow, that fingerwheel looks REALLY thick. I don't think I've ever handled one on a colored 302 set before - so I don't know how it compares - but the one pictured looks like a really solid piece of plastic.
I have a version 2 open-center (the one before the type used on early 500s) that was on one of my ivory 302s, but the dial card retainer was smashed to pieces. It's from 1953, but boy is it thick!!! :o
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on April 13, 2015, 06:54:41 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on April 13, 2015, 06:26:47 PM
Quote from: Doug Rose on April 13, 2015, 06:16:07 PM
He purchased it because of the rarity of a color of a pre-war 302.
An honest question here since I'm not up on color 302s. Other than the F1 transmitter dated 10/41, what else in the eBay listing would indicate that this is indeed a pre-war phone. The transmitter is easily inserted/exchanged and without seeing the inside dates, how can one or what do the color 302 experts see that make this a pre-war 302. Just trying to learn here.
The plungers are one thing to spot; they're full-color instead of clear or black. Another thing is the level of transparency. The prewar plastic 302 housings were translucent, even more so than the postwar plastics. These plastic housings were apparently unstable, and this lead to cracking and warping in unsuitable conditions.
Sound familiar? :o
The prewar 302 housings were apparently worse than the postwar ones when it came to cracking and shrinking. After all, this was the first time WE used colored thermoplastic housings, and they were far from perfect.
I have not seen, heard of or experienced that the prewar colored plastic were anymore or less susceptible to cracking or shrinking than when manufacturing resumed in 1949. Do you have reliable sources that state so? I have owned, repaired, and closely handled and examined nearly twenty of the later versions, and still have a considerable number of them, but I still have not had any prewar models to make such statements, have you?
I also have not seen any evidence that Western Electric had any more startup problems with them in 1941 than they had later. Frankly, we don't see enough of the early ones to make a statement.
The molding process and the material properties were well known by the time Western started to use them.
Western Electric did not make the plastic, they bought it from Eastman Kodak in granular form already colored in the tones they needed. Eastman was already producing all three of the principal varieties of Tenite (Acetate, Propionate, and Butyrate). I am sure Western Electric and the Bell Labs scientists worked closely with the Eastman chemists and plastics engineers. Surely, 10 years later technology improved, and the plastic formulations from Eastman may have been better, but we really don't know how. I have not found historical sources for improvements.
There seems to be some evidence that the black housings were handled differently. Some finders have reported varying degrees of translucency, even coloring from black to dark indigo blue. I found a 1941 black plastic example that is definitely more brittle than the later ones, because it was cracked and I could observe first hand how the plastic behaves with solvent. A crack that I thought I had welded, reappeared as well.
Whether the early materials exhibited more shrinking inherently, is almost impossible to ascertain, but we know they had an additional ten years time for that process. I don't know how else to quantify that. We can't repeat the experiment.
Just my $0.02 !
Quote from: unbeldi on April 13, 2015, 08:05:39 PM
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on April 13, 2015, 06:54:41 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on April 13, 2015, 06:26:47 PM
Quote from: Doug Rose on April 13, 2015, 06:16:07 PM
He purchased it because of the rarity of a color of a pre-war 302.
An honest question here since I'm not up on color 302s. Other than the F1 transmitter dated 10/41, what else in the eBay listing would indicate that this is indeed a pre-war phone. The transmitter is easily inserted/exchanged and without seeing the inside dates, how can one or what do the color 302 experts see that make this a pre-war 302. Just trying to learn here.
The plungers are one thing to spot; they're full-color instead of clear or black. Another thing is the level of transparency. The prewar plastic 302 housings were translucent, even more so than the postwar plastics. These plastic housings were apparently unstable, and this lead to cracking and warping in unsuitable conditions.
Sound familiar? :o
The prewar 302 housings were apparently worse than the postwar ones when it came to cracking and shrinking. After all, this was the first time WE used colored thermoplastic housings, and they were far from perfect.
I have not seen, heard of or experienced that the prewar colored plastic were anymore or less susceptible to cracking or shrinking than when manufacturing resumed in 1949. Do you have reliable sources that state so? I have owned, repaired, and closely handled and examined nearly twenty of the later versions, and still have a considerable number of them, but I still have not had any prewar models to make such statements, have you?
I also have not seen any evidence that Western Electric had any more startup problems with them in 1941 than they had later. Frankly, we don't see enough of the early ones to make a statement.
The molding process and the material properties were well known by the time Western started to use them.
Western Electric did not make the plastic, they bought it from Eastman Kodak in granular form already colored in the tones they needed. Eastman was already producing all three of the principal varieties of Tenite (Acetate, Propionate, and Butyrate). I am sure Western Electric and the Bell Labs scientists worked closely with the Eastman chemists and plastics engineers. Surely, 10 years later technology improved, and the plastic formulations from Eastman may have been better, but we really don't know how. I have not found historical sources for improvements.
There seems to be some evidence that the black housings were handled differently. Some finders have reported varying degrees of translucency, even coloring from black to dark indigo blue. I found a 1941 black plastic example that is definitely more brittle than the later ones, because it was cracked and I could observe first hand how the plastic behaves with solvent. A crack that I thought I had welded, reappeared as well.
Whether the early materials exhibited more shrinking inherently, is almost impossible to ascertain, but we know they had an additional ten years time for that process. I don't know how else to quantify that. We can't repeat the experiment.
Just my $0.02 !
I didn't have a reliable source for that. I had seen someone post that they were more unstable, so I went with that claim. The fact that the earlier plastics were slightly more translucent than their postwar counterparts was probably a sign that they were somewhat underdeveloped.
Quote from: TelePlay on April 13, 2015, 06:26:47 PM
Quote from: Doug Rose on April 13, 2015, 06:16:07 PM
He purchased it because of the rarity of a color of a pre-war 302.
An honest question here since I'm not up on color 302s. Other than the F1 transmitter dated 10/41, what else in the eBay listing would indicate that this is indeed a pre-war phone. The transmitter is easily inserted/exchanged and without seeing the inside dates, how can one or what do the color 302 experts see that make this a pre-war 302. Just trying to learn here.
Here is my list of differences that come to mind. Some of these points were already stated by others, as I see, but let me just summarize.
* Solid plastic plungers of the same housing color
* Solid (not hollow) handsets; the conductors from the receiver were molded into the plastic just like the solid handle Bakelite handsets. Therefore the underside of the handle does not have a plastic "lid" onto which the company logo is impressed.
* The mounting code of the housing is simply the letter H and the numeral, for example H1 for a 302, just like on the metal sets. The color housings produced starting in 1949 had hollow handles, and the handset mounting code always had a solid circle symbol following the code, e.g. H1 (circle). This indicates that the hookswitch is designed for the light-weight handsets.
* Correspondingly, the F1 designation on the handsets for the 1949+ sets has a dot following the F1, which the early ones don't have, again indicating a light-weight handset.
* The date stamp on the housing should be appropriate, of course.
* The 5J dial used a different mounting method for the plastic finger wheel which was thicker. The thickness is the immediate visible sign that the dial is probably authentic.
* The number card was inserted in place after the finger wheel is properly mounted, not before as on the post-war 5J dials (even before 1949, I have a 1947-stamped 5JB dial with the new finger wheel already)
* The finger hold cover between the cradle ears is metal painted in the appropriate color. Later, these were also made from plastic.
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on April 13, 2015, 08:14:55 PM
I didn't have a reliable source for that. I had seen someone post that they were more unstable, so I went with that claim. The fact that the earlier plastics were slightly more translucent than their postwar counterparts was probably a sign that they were somewhat underdeveloped.
Well, translucency statements can be just as subjective. It depends on how the sets were treated or exposed.
For example I have five Old Rose (I think, maybe only four anymore) sets, all dated between 1949 and 1954 and each one has a different color. Well, a different tone of Old Rose. It is not from discoloration, it is from fading. One set is clearly more translucent than all the others, and it appears the color pigments have been destroyed by light (I suppose), as the front of the set is faded much more than the rear. Under high magnification the plastic almost seems transparent and I can tell that the fading is not only in a thin surface layer, but deeper in the bulk as well. Sanding did very little to that housing for appearance.
This is the thick finger wheel that was on the early pre-war color 302s. It is very thick ans held on by a crisscross design, like an x. The dial card and celluloid pushed in the open face. It is like nothing you have ever seen....Doug
What is interesting about this set, and which makes it quiet rare, is that it was produced not for use in the Bell System, but for the independent market, as is evidenced by the F1W marking in the handset logo which does not refer to the Bell System.
This probably indicates that the issuing telephone company was an independent, or bought it from WECo for the purpose of presentation to their honoree separately.
Also note that the handset includes the RF filter on the transmitter, which was common for all non-Bell System handsets. The capacitor was not installed in handsets for the Bell System member.
That fingerwheel is very cool! I have yet to own one of those but I love how thick it is!
Another difference in the pre-war colored 302 sets is that the threads on the handset caps are different from the threads used on the postwar sets. You cannot thread a prewar cap on a postwar handset, and vice-versa. And I would disagree that the plastic is more translucent. To me, the prewar colored plastic is virtually opaque, compared to the postwar sets. A year or two ago I posted photos on this forum of all my prewar colored 302s, so the photos are on here somewhere. I'm still looking for a blue one, if indeed they ever made prewar 302s in blue.
Quote from: Jon Kolger on April 21, 2015, 07:56:01 PM
I'm still looking for a blue one, if indeed they ever made prewar 302s in blue.
Oh, yes they did! :D
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12997
I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about this blue prewar 302 selling on ebay. It really does look great and Jim is doing a fantastic job of restoring it. Ray Kotke could probably make a set of solid blue matching plungers for it, but the ones you have painted seem to match it quite well. Most of the prewar colored 302s that I have seen have brown cords, although blue cords would look much nicer. I'm jealous...
Quote from: Jon Kolger on April 22, 2015, 05:43:11 PM
I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about this blue prewar 302 selling on ebay. It really does look great and Jim is doing a fantastic job of restoring it. Ray Kotke could probably make a set of solid blue matching plungers for it, but the ones you have painted seem to match it quite well. Most of the prewar colored 302s that I have seen have brown cords, although blue cords would look much nicer. I'm jealous...
I think Jim would trade for your blue AE34! :o
Quote from: Jon Kolger on April 22, 2015, 05:43:11 PM
Most of the prewar colored 302s that I have seen have brown cords, ...
Does this include the painted metal sets you have found or seen?
The only painted metal sets I have noticed where either the metallic tones or ivory and old rose. I do not recall having ever seen a prewar
painted red, green, or blue one, despite them being listed in the 1939 catalog.
When I made that statement, I was referring to prewar colored plastic 302 sets. I own a painted blue 302 and a painted ivory 302, but I don't know what the dates are on them. I don't get all hung up on the dates, I just like them for what they are. And no, I won't be trading my blue AE 34 anytime soon.
Quote from: unbeldi on April 22, 2015, 06:20:36 PM
Quote from: Jon Kolger on April 22, 2015, 05:43:11 PM
Most of the prewar colored 302s that I have seen have brown cords, ...
Does this include the painted metal sets you have found or seen?
The only painted metal sets I have noticed where either the metallic tones or ivory and old rose. I do not recall having ever seen a prewar painted red, green, or blue one, despite them being listed in the 1939 catalog.
Recently a green-painted metal 302 of Q1 1939 appeared on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1939-Western-Electric-Metal-Model-302-Telephone-Original-Grey-Green-Paint-Works-/262004299094?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=WZh7Iiy8naraMDpjXWYnzcZG2s8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc) and sold for ca $212.
The paint was peeled off in large flat areas, somewhat untypical perhaps, because usually it is the cradle area that is worn the most, but was in better shape here, although the set appears original, with brown Bakelite groove-less handset, and originally green but heavily light bleached handset cord. The dial seems marked I 39, matching the set, but the dial adapter doesn't seem as expected, it isn't visible in the usual places, only the rubber grommet are visible. The original stainless-steel number card holder had been replaced with a black one.