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Old F1 transmitter

Started by wds, January 03, 2012, 10:36:36 AM

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wds

I have this F1 handset that I've had for a couple years, and never removed the caps, until today.  Found this older F1 tranmsitter from 1934 - not sure if this one is special, or very common, but I have not seen one this old before.  None of the material is magnetic.  I thought I remembered a thread about these older transmitters/receivers, but couldn't find it.  Any thoughts on this one?
Dave

G-Man

Quote from: wds on January 03, 2012, 10:36:36 AM
I have this F1 handset that I've had for a couple years, and never removed the caps, until today.  Found this older F1 tranmsitter from 1934 - not sure if this one is special, or very common, but I have not seen one this old before.  None of the material is magnetic.  I thought I remembered a thread about these older transmitters/receivers, but couldn't find it.  Any thoughts on this one?

While it is a nice older F1 transmitter, not particularly uncommon.
The two R stamps indicate it has been refilled a couple of times with stabilized carbon.

wds

According to Paul F.'s website, the F1 handset didn't come out until 1936.  Would this have been used in the E1, or some other handset?
Dave

Doug Rose

Quote from: wds on January 03, 2012, 12:11:15 PM
According to Paul F.'s website, the F1 handset didn't come out until 1936.  Would this have been used in the E1, or some other handset?
I'd vote for the E1 as well...Doug
Kidphone

bingster

These weren't originally designed for the F1 handset, but rather were made for the E1 to replace the original (and poorly functioning) barrier button transmitter.
= DARRIN =



GG



Re. "refilled with stabilized carbon," is there a source for that material today?  I have a bunch of misc. European transmitters that sound scratchy and even "squeaky", that could use to be fixed. 

This of course will involve prying off the center contact button on them and then fastening it back on when done, but would still be worthwhile in a few cases.  For example I have an early 30s Norwegian Ericsson (EB) version of the 332 that has a squeaky transmitter, but with new carbon it would probably sound good.  There's something particularly satisfying about 80-something-year-old phones sounding better than the latest "smart phones." (evil grin!)

Or is there someone in the community who specializes in refilling transmitters, to whom a bunch could be sent? 

While we're on the subject of transmitters: the electrodynamic microphone used on later Australian PMG 800-series sets (particularly DTMF) is highly prone to picking up ambient 60-Hz noise, but can be replaced successfully with a PMG carbon mic.  Useful to know in case anyone here has an Australian phone with a "hum" on the line. 

Phonesrfun

I once got a Strowger 11 digit wood wall phone that would not transmit. After a lot of effort, I found that the transmitter tested completely open.  Upon further investigation, I found that the transmitter had been completely emptied out of all the carbon granules.  I sacrificed 3 T1 transmitters to get enough carbon granules to get the AE/Strowger transmitter to work, and it did work nicely.

True story.
-Bill G

twocvbloke

Would ground up activated carbon for things like air filters and aquarium filters not work?  ???

That stuff is plentiful, I think I have some somewhere (was for my fish tank, but just made a mess of my filters), I just don't know where...  :D

dencins

An important difference in the carbon -

From the IEEE Virtual Museum:

"It was Edison to the rescue again. In 1886 he found an unusual way of improving the carbon granules—roasting them. Transmitters made with these roasted carbon granules were far superior to any that came before them. In 1890, after five years of development, the Bell Company introduced a transmitter using Edison's carbon transmitter. The granular carbon transmitter became the standard technology in telephones almost immediately, and with a few modifications was used for almost 100 years."

Also I read somewhere that the process for making the carbon granules was changed with the introduction of the T1.  The granules were made more rounded eliminating sharp edges which also helped improve performance.  I have rebuilt quite a few solid back transmitters and have mixed original carbon with F1 and T1 carbon.  The results have always been very good.

I have never "screened" the carbon to get the granule size but if anyone does it I would be interesed in the results.

Dennis Hallworth

G-Man

Quote from: bingster on January 03, 2012, 01:21:00 PM
These weren't originally designed for the F1 handset, but rather were made for the E1 to replace the original (and poorly functioning) barrier button transmitter.

In the early '50s Western Electric once again changed it's formula to produce Stabilized Carbon. It retained desirable characteristics longer including the ability to resist cohering (packing). According to Bell System Practices, the R on the pictured F1 transmitter indicates it was refilled with this Stabilized Carbon.

At times Kellogg purchased this product from Western when they were unable to produce a product that met their own quality guidelines.

The F1 Transmitter was NOT intended to be produced solely for the E1 handset but was being developed for their new combined telephone (300-series) and accompanying handset (F-series) which ended up taking much longer to introduced then what they had originally envisioned.

The F1 was the first successful non-positional transmitter but the concept did not originate with Ma Bell but was a patented by and licensed from George Eaton at Kellogg Switchboard and Supply.
                        

G-Man

Quote from: G-Man on January 04, 2012, 02:59:07 AM
Quote from: bingster on January 03, 2012, 01:21:00 PM
These weren't originally designed for the F1 handset, but rather were made for the E1 to replace the original (and poorly functioning) barrier button transmitter.

In the early '50s Western Electric once again changed it's formula to produce Stabilized Carbon. It retained desirable characteristics longer including the ability to resist cohering (packing). According to Bell System Practices, the R on the pictured F1 transmitter indicates it was refilled with this Stabilized Carbon.

At times Kellogg purchased this product from Western when they were unable to produce a product that met their own quality guidelines.

The F1 Transmitter was NOT intended to be produced solely for the E1 handset but was being developed for their new combined telephone (300-series) and accompanying handset (F-series) which ended up taking much longer to introduced then what they had originally envisioned.

The F1 was the first successful non-positional transmitter but the concept did not originate with Ma Bell but was a patented by and licensed from George Eaton at Kellogg Switchboard and Supply.
                        

I came across this in the TCI archives and thought it might add to the discussion regarding the manufacture of transmitter carbon. It was written by a retired Kellogg engineer and shows the one time that Western Electric was forced to purchase carbon from Kellogg instead of vice-versa:

Behind the scenes the equipment manufacturers did help each other out,
particularly when it came to penalty-for-late-delivery contracts for the
government.

Kellogg didn't actually make T1 transmitters for Western Electric.

What it did was provide the carbon for use in these transmitters for several weeks
after the person at the Western Electric' Indianapolis phone plant in charge
of carbon production retired and WE suddenly discovered that it could no
longer make acceptable quality carbon.

The know-how was in the head of the person who had retired, but nobody realized it until he was gone. They got him back so he could write down the process and make sure others were
trained before he went back into retirement.

Meanwhile Kellogg's carbon production was working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to keep the
Indianapolis plant's phone production going.

When Kellogg went into production of the K-500 its first sets used some Western Electric components, including transmitters, receivers and 425 networks, until it got all of the bugs out of its own tooling and components. It also supplemented its own transmitter production with
transmitters from ITT's Bell Telephone Manufacturing Company in Belgium. It is not unusual to find early K-500 sets with T-1 type capsules stamped "Made in Belgium."

GG



That's just wonderful!  One normally thinks of Kellogg as #3 after WE and AE, and therefore unlikely to have come up with any significant innovations or breakthroughs.  But the fact that they invented the process for the carbon, and helped WE to maintain its own production, are points of pride. 

So, I wonder where one can go about buying this stuff in bulk.  A pound of it would go a very long way.  Just don't spill it on anything. 

G-Man

Quote from: GG on January 08, 2012, 03:04:15 AM


That's just wonderful!  One normally thinks of Kellogg as #3 after WE and AE, and therefore unlikely to have come up with any significant innovations or breakthroughs.  But the fact that they invented the process for the carbon, and helped WE to maintain its own production, are points of pride. 

So, I wonder where one can go about buying this stuff in bulk.  A pound of it would go a very long way.  Just don't spill it on anything. 

Kellogg
had many points of pride but inventing a superior process for the manufacture of carbon was not one of them.

In the past this same Kellogg engineer has conceded that the performance of  Western's T1 transmitter capsules were superior to their own.  While Kellogg, other Independent manufacturers and Western Electric helped each other at times, they also drew heavily from Western Electric's technologies, including the use of varistors for self-compensating networks and numerous other breakthroughs, big and small.

I am not a Bell Head but in this instance Kellogg supplied carbon to Western for a few weeks, and other than being a very temporary convenience, it does not compare with Western Electric supplying Kellogg, Stromberg Carlson the license for them to clone the 500-series of  telephones, 1A, 1A1, 1A2 key telephone systems, transistors, and much, much, more!

Almost all Independent manufacturers used Western Electric components in their products at one time or another. Some Kellogg and Stromberg space-saver bodies were sourced from Western, and Leich frequently used their handsets, elements and induction coils and all used Western Electric ringing tubes for their instruments when needed.   

Automatic Electric used Western Electric components in some of their payphones such as in the types 92 and 86-10. 

GG



I'll agree with you on all of that, but in the climate of the industry back then it wasn't surprising that WE did all of those things.  It was more surprising that one of the small guys helped the big guy in a pinch.  And today it's surprising in the sense that today's business culture is much less that way. 

Though, Microsoft giving Apple a needed boost at a critical point is a good example that it still happens from time to time.  In the end, the "desktop wars" came to a truce and everybody won: Apple is still strong and always striving for perfection, and Windows improved greatly while retaining the ability to run on every conceivable type of hardware.  (I use both, so I don't have a horse in that race.) 

G-Man

Quote from: GG on January 09, 2012, 06:25:58 AM


I'll agree with you on all of that, but in the climate of the industry back then it wasn't surprising that WE did all of those things.  It was more surprising that one of the small guys helped the big guy in a pinch.  And today it's surprising in the sense that today's business culture is much less that way. 

Though, Microsoft giving Apple a needed boost at a critical point is a good example that it still happens from time to time.  In the end, the "desktop wars" came to a truce and everybody won: Apple is still strong and always striving for perfection, and Windows improved greatly while retaining the ability to run on every conceivable type of hardware.  (I use both, so I don't have a horse in that race.) 

Refreshing Isn't It?