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Line Cord / 505A Plug Questions for 702B Princess Phone

Started by GLadstone, August 04, 2010, 08:00:22 AM

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GLadstone

Hi Everyone,

I love rotary phones and have been using them all my life, but am relatively new at rotary phone troubleshooting (due to recent 500 C/D and 702B purchases. I was able to solve the 500 C/D issue, but need some help with the 702B problem).
I have been searching through this forum and the related websites (Porticus' site, Dennis' site, Paul-F's site) and found some related documents/photos, but I have yet to find anything that definitively answers my questions...

The princess phone is in great condition: good color (could use a little cleaning/polish) and date-matching to 3-63, but the line cord going into the 505A (four prong) plug looks odd-- the line insulation ends before the plug and reveals the wires/conductors. (Sorry the pictures are kinda dark/blurry-- I'm still experimenting with my camera...).

1)


This is the first phone I have that still has an original line cord/plug, so I have nothing to compare it to (most were converted to the modern modular RJ11 plug).

When I open the 505A plug, there are no spade tips at the ends of the wires / conductors, just bare wire pushed through the cord tip guide to the socket type terminal assembly. (Vocabulary borrowed from the BSP plug PDF linked to below).

2)


3)

The white wire / conductor can barely be seen under the yellow wire / conductor close to the pink insulation.

4)

Close view of the white wire / conductor.

5)

Another overall view of my line cord and opened 505A plug.

Related resources I found:
-Bell System Practices (BSP) 461-630-105 Plugs for Portable Telephone Sets Identification and Connections
found here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/...791.0
Direct link to BSP PDF:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/...attach=2525
See pages four and seven.

-Photos of a modified line cord attached to a 505A plug found here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=946.0
Direct link to photos:
Closed plug: http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/wallphones004.jpg
Opened plug: http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/wallphones005.jpg

My questions:
-I was wondering if someone would be so kind as to take some detailed photos of an original / intact five wire / conductor line cord that was properly attached to a 505A plug so I can see what it should look like? (I am a very visual person and seeing photos will greatly help my troubleshooting.)
-Should my line cord have spade tips at the end of it? Or is it okay as is?
Point four in section 4.06 on page seven of the BSP PDF states:
"Arrange the mounting cord spade tips in the socket type terminals."
Which leads me to believe the wires /conductors should have spade tips... But is it also okay as is? Is it a safety issue as is?
-Should I add a restraint to the end of the insulation to better hold it inside the 505A plug housing? Or should I leave it as is and use electrical tape?

-We don't have a transformer yet, but plan on purchasing one and just want to make sure that this is set-up safely before moving forward-- Any other thoughts / suggestions about this line cord / plug set-up?

As with most things of quality, my thought is that the original designers/engineers knew what they were doing and if it was designed /constructed with spade tips, it should probably be restored to spade tips, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. My primary concern here is safety followed closely by originality.

---

I have also been searching through the various part websites and found some parts that look like they may work to correct the end of my line cord if it should have spade tips at the end (I would love your feedback and/or corrections here):
-Restraint for the insulation to hold inside the 505A plug (Part = RESTA):
http://www.phonecoinc.com/...topic=01007

-Small loop restraint for white wire (SKU = 23281; Part = A-100):
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/spades-closed-small-each.html

12-22-2016 Edit:
Same part number, new link:
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/restraint-loop-small-each.html
End edit.

-Spades, small, vinyl piercing, for the other four wires (SKU = 23079; Part = A-155):
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/spades-small-vinyl-piercing-100.html
I don't really need 100... Anyone know a source for smaller quantities?

-Or, would it be better to just get a whole new cord?
The only one I see with five conductors is this one (SKU = 21260)-- no pink-- but would the fifth conductor spade be too long? Would this work on a princess phone?:
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/cord-line-5c-original-ivory.html

-In a related question, has anyone had a line cord made for them?
The Old Phone Works website lists a pink cloth line cord that can be made with five conductors here (SKU = 23028; Part = D5SSP):
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/...5-cond-78.html
Thoughts on that?

Because this phone is my mom's dream phone and the most complete phone we own as far as date matching goes, I would like to try to salvage the original line cord, so any advice you can offer here is greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time,
GLadstone

12-27-2016 Edit:
Insert image links updated from Picasa Web Albums to GLadstone's CRPF member photo collection.

paul-f

Welcome to the forum!

I think you've answered your own questions.  Well done!

Your line cord should have spade tips to fit in the slots on the plug.  The wires in the line cord have delicate tinsel conductors, which can't be trusted to make good electrical contact on their own.  Spade tips need to be of the proper size and should be insulation piercing to make good contact.

You can substitute other spade tips by stripping a bit of the insulation and folding a loop of the bare wire back under the insulation so it is in contact with the spade tip before it's crimped.

The "proper" way to install a spade tip involves a crimping tool, although (with some practice) you can crimp them on using appropriate sized pliers and a little patience.  (You'd be wise to practice on some scrap wire.)  Be sure to test the result with an electrical continuity tester before use -- just to make sure you got a good connection.

The tips available in small quantities at Radio Shack can be used.

There should be no need to replace the line cord, as this one can be saved.

Good luck.

Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

.

bingster

A
Quote from: GLadstone on August 04, 2010, 08:00:22 AM
-Should I add a restraint to the end of the insulation to better hold it inside the 505A plug housing? Or should I leave it as is and use electrical tape?

Welcome to the forum!  As Paul said, the spade lugs are missing, but additionally, you're missing the wingband restraint, which has tips designed to seat in the slots in the opening of the plug.  At some point, this cord has been cut short, which has resulted in the loss of all the metal bits.  If you replace the lugs, you'll also want to add a wingband restraint to prevent the conductors being pulled out of the spades if the cord gets yanked. 

Here's a photo of a wingband restraint, in case you haven't seen one:



The cord above suffered the same fate as yours--the end of the cord had been cut off.  I had to strip the outer jacket back and install a restraint and lugs.
= DARRIN =



jsowers

#3
Here are two eBay auctions for spade tip terminals, FYI. The first one has terminals that look exactly like what originally came on your phone. Quantity is 50. It ends in a few hours, so act quickly if you want them. This seller has these up all the time. I've bought them before and they work great.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290460109618 ( dead link 03-27-21 )


The seller of this one (below) will make a deal for fewer terminals if you don't want 100 spades. You could probably just send him an email. His terminals are more squared off looking, but will still do the job.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SPADE-TIP-TERMINALS-ANTIQUE-PHONES-TELEPHONES-/270617353335 ( dead link 03-27-21 )


Do as Paul suggests and bend a little of the tinsel back behind the wire when you crimp. It will make sure you get a good connection. I think Radio Shack does still sell the crimpers. Not so sure about the spades, though. And yes, you do need a wingband restraint. It goes down in the slot of the 505A and the white clip (still lodged in the cap) goes down over that restraint to clamp it. I don't know where you get those wingband restraints. I usually rob an old cord I will never use.

I'll see if I can post a picture for you of an installed 505A, but it will have to be tomorrow.

You may have to do some rewiring inside the phone to get the lamp to light. It depends on if the lamp was wired to use the white wire or not. The four wires you have will do the job. Let's tackle that after you get the spades crimped.

Glad to have you on the forum GLadstone.
Jonathan

GLadstone

Hi paul-f, bingster, and jsowers,

Thank you for the quick replies, photo, and links-- it is very much appreciated!!  :)

I was just looking at the ebay auctions-- thank you for providing an expert opinion about "what works!"

I was also going to investigate some local sources for the crimping tool (to compare prices), but see that the Old Phone Works sells one (SKU = 22591)-- I need to order some other things from them as well, so it would be combined shipping...:
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/crimping-tool.html

As for the wingband restraint, is this the correct part? (Part # RESTA):
http://www.phonecoinc.com/topic.asp?map=4&hhrl=home&gorl=group&group=misc&category=Cords&topic=01007

---

I've also been investigating the wiring inside the base of the phone at the 4010 B Network and the Lamp Terminal Block, and so far the wires / conductors from the line cord match the wiring diagrams (using all five wires / conductors), but I am still tracing the other wires to be sure...

If you are interested, I can share some photos of that in this or another topic too...

---

In any case, I'll start ordering parts for the line cord at the plug end and keep you all updated with my progress!

Thank you again for all you assistance!

Take care,
GLadstone

bingster

Quote from: GLadstone on August 04, 2010, 05:09:10 PMAs for the wingband restraint, is this the correct part? (Part # RESTA):
That's it exactly.  They came in a few different sizes, but this is probably the middle size, which should work just fine for your cord.
= DARRIN =



GLadstone

Hi bingster,

Thank you for the confirmation about the restraint part!
I'll submit my parts orders shortly!

Take care,
GLadstone

jsowers

Here are some pictures of a turquoise 505A I have on a 701 Princess (the model before yours). The cord has long wires that have to be bundled just so inside the plug. I wouldn't make the wires this long if I were you. Both the white and blue wires were cut off on mine. The 701 has a 6-conductor mounting cord, for whatever reason.

Note particularly the way the wingband restraint goes into the white clip, sort of at a 45-degree angle and to one side of the clip and not the other. The clip should go all the way down into the slot. If it doesn't, you'll have a problem getting the cap on. And since it's plastic, don't overtighten the screw.

Please post pictures of your network and that should reveal if the wires are hooked up OK. I have a white 702 connected to a transformer beside my bed I can check against it.
Jonathan

GLadstone

Hi jsowers,

That is amazing!!!  ;D

Thank you so much for doing that and for offering to take a look at my network pictures!
I downloaded and printed a couple of the wiring diagrams, but am having trouble deciphering the wiring color codes as some of my wires seem to either be a slightly different color or just faded / dirty, so your help would be appreciated.

Here is the wiring diagram I have been primarily using:
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/...702b.pdf
From here:
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/library/...weco.htm

12-22-2016 Edit:
Broken link --> Alternate link:
Search the TCI Library for 702b:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/

Example:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/2209-princess-telephones-702b-tl

702b TI document:
Princess Telephones, 702b Tl

702b search link:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/search?q=702b

End edit.

And, here is is a related BSP document/PDF (502-721-402) with wiring diagrams:
http://wedophones.com/...502-721-402-8110.pdf
From here:
http://wedophones.com/....htm


When I was comparing the wiring diagram to the phone, I took photos from various angles-- it may seem like a two year old got a hold of a camera to you ;), but hopefully you can see everything.

I'll also write down my color interpretation of the wires and their locations.
(I haven't gotten very far into the "color-matching process" / wire tracing process yet, so some of these "color interpretations" may change as I see the wires in different light settings and continue to trace wires...)

Lamp Terminal Block:
11) Top view:


12) Front View:


My wire locations and interpretation of colors at Lamp Terminal Block:
1 = white / green
2 = white / orange
3 = white (from line cord)
4 = front (closest to camera): blue / white
                                           gray (slate) / white / red
      back (furthest from camera): black (from line cord)

4010B Network:
13) Overall Top View:


14) Top View of Top Left Corner:


15) Top View of Top Right Corner:


16L) Side View of Top Right Corner:


16R) Side view of Bottom Right Corner (with Line Cord):


My wire locations and interpretation of colors at 4010 B Network:
Top Left Corner:
C = white / gray (slate)
A = red
      black
B = black
RR = green
G = yellow (line cord)
      black
H = gray (slate)
GN = white
         white
         white 
         red

Top Right Corner:
K = red
R = red
      white
      white
      white / black
F = blue
      gray (slate)

Bottom Right Corner:
L2 =  red (line cord)
         white / yellow / gray (slate)
L1 = green (line cord)
        white / green

Hope that all makes sense (and I didn't miss anything)!
If you need any more photos or information, please let me know!

Thank you again for your generous help,
GLadstone

12-22-2016 Edit:
Removed Picasa Web Album Text Links

12-27-2016 Edit:
Insert image links updated from Picasa Web Albums to GLadstone's CRPF member photo collection.

jsowers

Wow! Thanks for all the closeups. From the pictures, I would say your 702 is wired correctly. But you do need to alter the end of your mounting cord, so, read on...

From the 1967 702 I have next to me, I can see the white wire and black wire were used for the lamp circuit, and the yellow wire is shorter inside the phone and won't reach to the lamp socket. So when you attach your spades, strip the outer jacket down about two to three inches so you get the white wire too and attach a spade to it.

The plug I took pictures of was from a 701 and the wires are different on those. Sorry about that.

Tracing down the mounting cord inside the 702, the white wire attaches to the 3 terminal next to the lamp. The black wire attaches to the 4 terminal that's raised up slightly higher  to the right of the 3 terminal. That has other wires attached to it that go to the night light switch on the back and the hookswitch. Hopefully those are all intact.

If you have a continuity checker, you can check the line cord connections all the way to the lamp. The white wire on the plug end of the mounting cord will have continuity to the right side of the lamp socket. The black wire should have continuity to the left side of the lamp socket (with the lamp removed as in your pictures). This is looking from the front of the phone.

Those wedge-based lamps are often loose and make intermittent contact in the socket, so sometimes you have to wiggle them around to make them work. You can also gently fold out the wires of the lamp and push them back up a little, and it should make better contact. The lamps are #259 and they're 6 volts. Sometimes cleaning the lamp socket helps too. A little alcohol on a Q-tip will get out the dirt.

At the other end of the mounting cord, on the 505A plug, attach white to Y and black to B by pushing the spade into the slot. If one slot is loose, try another. I think each pin has two slots. You may also need a 4-pin to modular converter, depending on the wiring in your house.

When you install the transformer, you can attach it to your phone jack on the wall with a short piece of station wire to the Y and B terminals, but be sure there are no yellow or black wires from the house wiring hooked to your phone jack. You don't want that voltage all over the house--just at the one phone.

I hope that answers your questions. If not, then feel free to post any questions you have. And I'm Jonathan (one of two that I know of on the forum). Good luck getting your phone working.
Jonathan

GLadstone

#10
Hi jsowers / Jonathan,

Thanks again for spending the time to look at my wiring and to advise me on how to correct it!  8)

I'm going to need to print this topic out and set it by the phone so I can better follow what you are saying when the parts come in and I begin the repairs!
I understand what you are saying that the white wire/conductor will need power since it is connected to terminal three (does G stand for ground on these princess networks like it does with the 500s?).

When I was looking at the pictures of the wiring at the Porticus site (http://www.porticus.org/bell/telephones-princess.html), I thought things looked a "little off" on my phone, but I wasn't sure if it was just the variation of a 1963 (mine) versus a 1970 (his) model so I sincerely appreciate your feedback about my wiring.

Since these not my images, I'll just add the links:

Porticus' 1970 702B Lamp Terminal network shows my wires at four are opposite:
http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/princess-702b-linecord5.jpg
Since there is a plate under both screws, are both screws labeled four and I can leave the wires as is, or do I need to rotate the wires as seen in the Porticus site?

21) Here is another look at mine:


Wire colors / locations:
3 = white (from line cord)
4 = front (closest to camera): blue / white
                                           gray (slate) / white / red
      back (furthest from camera): black (from line cord)

Similarly, Porticus' 1970 702B Network photo show wires in different locations (for example, I think the black wire is at L1 instead of G), but some of the wires are different colors so it is a bit hard to tell...:
http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/princess-702b-linecord7.jpg

22) Another look at mine:


And, different wiring route for line cord to lamp terminal block:
http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/princess-702b-linecord3.jpg

Thanks again for all your time and assistance!

Take care,
GLadstone / Elizabeth

12-27-2016 Edit:
Insert image links updated from Picasa Web Albums to GLadstone's CRPF member photo collection.

jsowers

#11
Quote from: GLadstone on August 07, 2010, 05:27:17 AM
I'm going to need to print this topic out and set it by the phone so I can better follow what you are saying when the parts come in and I begin the repairs!
I understand what you are saying that the white wire/conductor will need power since it is connected to terminal three (does G stand for ground on these princess networks like it does with the 500s?).

When I was looking at the pictures of the wiring at the Porticus site, I thought things looked a "little off" on my phone, but I wasn't sure if it was just the variation of a 1963 (mine) versus a 1970 (his) model so I sincerely appreciate your feedback about my wiring.

Since these not my images, I'll just add the links:

Porticus' 1970 702B Lamp Terminal network shows my wires at four are opposite:
Since there is a plate under both screws, are both screws labeled four and I can leave the wires as is, or do I need to rotate the wires as seen in the Porticus site?

Similarly, Porticus' 1970 702B Network photo show wires in different locations (for example, I think the black wire is at L1 instead of G), but some of the wires are different colors so it is a bit hard to tell...:

And, different wiring route for line cord to lamp terminal block:

Elizabeth,

G does stand for Ground. Back in the 1950s, Ground was sometimes used for ringing in 500 sets. Often one of the ringer wires is found still hooked to Ground. That's probably not the case in your Princess. With two wires used for the lamp, and having only four wires in the plug, they couldn't use Ground for ringing in those phones when they plugged in.

The opposite wires on terminal 4 in that Porticus picture make no difference. They're all connected together.

The different wiring route in the other picture also makes no difference, but I think yours is better. If the mounting cord has all the wires the same length, maybe that's the only way they will reach? You luckily don't have that problem.

Let us know what happens after the spades go on.
Jonathan

GLadstone

#12
Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for the update!

Quote from: jsowers on August 07, 2010, 03:27:38 PM
Let us know what happens after the spades go on.

Will do!

-----

Just for kicks and giggles (and as a pre-test before the repairs begin), I did a continuity test of the wires / conductors as they currently exist in the line cord.  :D

31) Just as a reminder for anyone else reading along, here is the current state of the plug end of my line cord:


The results:
Continuity exists when I:
-Touch (white) terminal three screw at lamp terminal block and exposed part of white wire at plug end (the white wire is the cut one at the line cord end).
-Touch (black) terminal four screw at lamp terminal block and the black socket type terminal assembly (exposed pin of the four prong plug).
-Touch (yellow) terminal G screw at 4010 B Net and the yellow socket type terminal assembly (exposed pin of the four prong plug).
-Touch (green) terminal L1 screw at 4010 B Net and exposed part of green wire at plug end between the cord tip guide and the block.
-Touch (red) terminal L2 screw at 4010 B Net and exposed part of red wire at plug end between the cord tip guide and the block.

Continuity sporadically exists when I:
-Touch (green) terminal L1 screw at 4010 B Net and the green socket type terminal assembly (exposed pin of the four prong plug).

Continuity does not exist when I:
-Touch (red) terminal L2 screw at 4010 B Net and the red socket type terminal assembly (exposed pin of the four prong plug).

So, paul-f was correct when he said earlier:

Quote from: paul-f on August 04, 2010, 01:30:29 PM
The wires in the line cord have delicate tinsel conductors, which can't be trusted to make good electrical contact on their own.

---

And, I had one of my part orders come in today (from PhoneCo Inc.):

32)


33) And, in case anyone else was wondering about the restraint part [how it looks (un-clamped) and fits on the cord (un-clamped)- I just picked a random spot on the cord]:


34)


35)


36)


Un-clamped, the restraint piece does not really fit into the cord channel, but I could arrange the restraint tip so that it fit inside the cord fastener piece at the plug end (I did not take any pictures of this at this time, but I will try to remember to take some before I fasten it to the cord).

Well, I think that is all for now.

Take care,
GLadstone / Elizabeth

12-27-2016 Edit:
Insert image links updated from Picasa Web Albums to GLadstone's CRPF member photo collection.

Russ Kirk

I just saw something interesting.  The little spade logo on the first photo.  Could the explanation be that simple?  Because of the spade tips???

Russ..
- Russ Kirk
ATCA & TCI

paul-f

Quote from: GLadstone on August 08, 2010, 02:27:49 AM

So, paul-f was correct when he said earlier:

Quote from: paul-f on August 04, 2010, 01:30:29 PM
The wires in the line cord have delicate tinsel conductors, which can't be trusted to make good electrical contact on their own.


The construction of the line cord conductors is quite interesting.  Looking closely, you'll see the thin copper tinsel wound around a center fabric leader.  This makes the conductor much more flexible than a solid rod of copper, so better able to handle the many thousends of flexes the cord can expect during its lifetime.  It also uses a lot less copper, so the accountants are happy, too.

The crimp on spade lugs solve the problem of how to connect to the thin tinsel reliably.  The insulation is pierced to get at the tinsel inside, and the outer metal crimped tightly around the wire puts the joint in compression -- so the tinsel is immobilized where it connects with the spade tip.  The leader and insulation provide mechanical stability.

Without the tip, the copper is so thin and flexible that  it won't connect well in a push in joint, and will fracture easily if used under a screw head.  Soldering to it is a challenge, as the copper tends to melt.

There's some creative engineering there.
Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

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