Model 354 Dialing Troubles

[ChristmasGuy]

I got a WE Model 354, It works when I hook up the phone line generator, it works on the line aswell, you can speak and hear on the reciever, the only issue is that I cant seem to dial out on these older phones, I've had the same problem with my 102. It looks like it is wired like some of the schematics I've seen on here, would really love to get it to dial out! Thanks for any help!

Attached is the diagram, I havent moved any wires upon recieving this so I'm not too sure, I heard someone said that you have to move a wire around to dial out or something.

[LarryInMichigan]

That phone was able to dial out before I sent it.  Does the dial break dial tone?  If not, your phone service may not support pulse dialing.  If that is the case, you may need to use a pule-to-tone adapter.  I use a Dialgizmo (www.dialgizmo.com) which works pretty well.

Larry

[ChristmasGuy]

Yep the dial breaks tone, I have a pulse to tone converter, currently hooked up with my other model 500s, I can dial out on the model 500, when I try to dial a second number on the 354 it registers one number then doesnt seem to register the second number entered, almost like it cut off the last number and reset.

[LarryInMichigan]

Make sure that your L1 and L2 wires are connected to the terminals marked "L1" and "L2" on the terminal board by the edge of the backplate.

Larry

[ChristmasGuy]

Yep, I have the line cord terminals connected to L1 and L2. Not sure why my other phones work but not any older model I have, it's weird, I don't know if I can dial out on my 302's either,  I just know I couldn't dial out on my 102 for as it too had a similar way of dialing out one number then quitting. What did you use to test the phone?

[ChristmasGuy]

Make sure that your L1 and L2 wires are connected to the terminals marked "L1" and "L2" on the terminal board by the edge of the backplate.

Larry

Attached is the phone converter I use. I dont think Old Rotary phones sells these anymore, I thought perhaps the mech went to  fast so I tried slowing it down by keeping my finger inside, but that didnt help, I was able to dial a number once but it said my number was out of service, since I havent been able to type out a full number. I then thought it could have been that the schematic I saw was like a 5H and the rotary I had was a 6A, didnt find much on here other than a small schematic that didnt help much. Ive even switched out the condenser cap to see if that was the problem since I hear a faint crackling sound but nope. I can hear the rotary click out when it finishes its rotation, it is heard on the reciever, my model 500s dont have such a hard crackling sound, but the reciever I am using is older, I couldnt figure out what is the problem. I even got my ohm meter out and took out the dial to check if it was getting a good connection, and it was. Would love to get it working tho, havent given up yet.



Edit: Thought it may have been a loose connection within the reciever, couldnt get the ear piece off so I switched it out with a another one, every now and then static will come in, I have a suspicion that it is the condenser capacitior, ive done just about everything I could find, traced the wires over and over, made sure that the hook switch had good connection with each fin, wasnt sure how much resistance the inductor should have, but I think its pretty good. I am at a loss!

Something else that I found out was that my 302's do not work on lines even with tone converter, which is weird since I checked the back of a model 500 and the contacts in the dial are almost completly the same, maybe im missing something here?

[LarryInMichigan]

I tested that phone my usual way, by dialing my phone number and leaving a message so that I can make sure that the phone dials out correctly and that the sound quality is good.  The pulses were converted by my Dialgizmo.  I doubt that there is an issue with the pulse waveform.  I believe that that 354 has a #6 dial in it.  When I try using an improperly adjusted dial, the Dialgizmo produces tones from the wrong numbers, but it does generate tones.

Larry

[dsk]

I do not know how selective that converter is for the dial speed and make-break ratio,but that may be an issue. Not often problems with make/brake ratio, but the speed.  If you just do not connect your working 500, and the  354,  dial a 0 and release the dial on both dial at the same time, is it a significant difference in the dial speed?
If yes we may need to analyze it.

dsk

[ChristmasGuy]

That's what I thought during my thought process, I think I simply just looked at a model 500 rotary, which I think spun slower since I did notice the older rotaries move way faster although they have very similar components, same switches inside! I will try and measure the time it takes for a standard model 500 rotary, I took out one of my model 302s and it did not call out at all. Sometimes it is able to dial out a number but other times my 302 will not dial out the number selected, I tested it a lot last night, sometimes it will quit out on the first number and not go through, other times it would quit out on the 5th number dialed, I did notice a large clicking sound when I start to dial out, so it may be messing with the converter, since I'm getting some interference, but it doesn't make sense how I haven't been able to dial out on any of my older dials, all my working phones with that pulse to tone converter work only with model 500s. I did notice that my touch tones will not work on the circuit so currently I have 2 wired circuits in my parents home, which I currently reside, one circuit has the converter, the other which doesn't go through the converter go to my parents digital phones.

[ChristmasGuy]

I tested that phone my usual way, by dialing my phone number and leaving a message so that I can make sure that the phone dials out correctly and that the sound quality is good.  The pulses were converted by my Dialgizmo.  I doubt that there is an issue with the pulse waveform.  I believe that that 354 has a #6 dial in it.  When I try using an improperly adjusted dial, the Dialgizmo produces tones from the wrong numbers, but it does generate tones.

Larry

I'll probably will have to buy the "digitazoo" I already forgot the name but it will be a little while before I can buy one since atm I'm dead broke haha!

[poplar1]

I simply just looked at a model 500 rotary, which I think spun slower since I did notice the older rotaries move way faster although they have very similar components, same switches inside! I will try and measure the time it takes for a standard model 500 rotary,

The 5H, 6A, and 7- or 9-type from 500s should all have the same speed: 10 pulses per second. Did you try dialing a zero from the 500 dial and the 354 at the same time, as dsk suggested?

[HarrySmith]

Comparing dials for speed works, if the other dial is correct. You can also pull the dial all the way over to zero and time it with your cell phone timer. Should be one second or close to it. Just tried 2 dials, one 1.3 sec & one at .97 sec. IIRC they both worked on my Panasonic but I am not home to test that.

[ChristmasGuy]

The 5H, 6A, and 7- or 9-type from 500s should all have the same speed: 10 pulses per second. Did you try dialing a zero from the 500 dial and the 354 at the same time, as dsk suggested?

I compared both dials one of a working 500 and the 354, they have very close to if not exact speeds!

[ChristmasGuy]

Comparing dials for speed works, if the other dial is correct. You can also pull the dial all the way over to zero and time it with your cell phone timer. Should be one second or close to it. Just tried 2 dials, one 1.3 sec & one at .97 sec. IIRC they both worked on my Panasonic but I am not home to test that.

As with the other commenter, the dials of a working 500 and the dial of that of the 354, both have exact same speeds when dialing, I set both to 0 and then let go, they stop at the same time!

[ChristmasGuy]

Here is the link for the video of the dial speed comparison that I added to youtube,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSRngxdhZaY

You can see the rotary speeds are the same.

-I also forgot to mention that while testing, the rotary started to get really slow yesterday, so I took it apart and lightly oiled it with some clock lubricant, seemed to fix the friction it had before and runs smoothly like in the video above!

Some more repeated observations, from the current wiring diagram I have added above, wired with the 6A rotary, the schematic has the rotary 5H. I dont think its that far off, but what I noticed is when I move the rotary on a working model 500, it makes a different sound than the 6A dial, when I move the dial on the 354, the rotary makes a sound on the reciver, the same sound as when the hook off and the switch is open. On the model 500, when I move the rotary a few cm from its resting spot, the sound is different, and most definatly not the same as when you pull the hook down, (ending the call) When picking up the reciever on a 500, there is a harsh sound, this harsh sound is not present when dialing, When I dial with the 354, I get this harsh sound (the same sound as taking the phone off the hook, my hypothesis is that the wiring diagram is NOT the same as the 5H wiring diagram like shown above, I bet that every time I move that rotary dial, it acts as if it was the hook switch, wired so something it should not be. Or I could just be entirly wrong and actually needing the other converter, but it doesnt make much sense how one phone works and the older one doesnt, I am probably missing something so easy! I still cant find much wiring diagrams on here.