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Automatic Electric Model 50 - Brown Bakelite - eBay Auction

Started by mazda_matt, February 03, 2017, 03:34:43 PM

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AE_Collector

#15
Those colors would basically agree with my thoughts. Mahogany has red tones to it where as Walnut is more the same color though could be darker than your example. Going by those three examples I would think that an AE phone in Mahogany would be the brighter version of Bakelite, like the back plate on my 50 shown below where as Walnut is like the cover on my 50.

The codes on the back seem to indicate dial blank and what....a 16 or 20 cycle ringer where as it now has a dial and a SL ringer in it. The 00 stamped on the back seems to have been done as a separate step from the rest of the stamp but it looks like zeros not "O"h's so doesn't fit the standard coding. Maybe changed to 00 when it was refurbished?

unbeldi

I am sorry, now I see that my question about codes was already answered previously. I was surprised to find it already in my database.
It is the only type 5002 that I have recorded.

It seems the only phones that have that INSP(ection) marking are always those from Brockville.
Am I correct in finding that whenever the INSP stamp is present, the third code group, in this case OO, does NOT have a digit associated ? I am sure I have not recorded all INSP markings, but this is what I recall from memory, and the only ones that I do have recorded, show so.

The in "1" in "B1" would be a 16.6 Hz harmonic ringer, not 20 Hz synchromonic, which would be "6".

I believe they used the same stamps for "0" and "O", or the stamping tool used the same type. It is always impossible, IMHO, to distinguish them in these codes.  I think we have to decide by position.  This code group is always letters, and the digit if present is either suffixed (usually) or prefixed (rarely).

PS: Unfortunately, this does not make it any easier in deciding whether the straight-line ringer indication uses a zero or an O character. The 1934 catalog seems to indicate it was a capital O, but I believe there are other examples where it seems to be a zero even in print.



unbeldi

By the pictures, I would argue for calling the base Mahogany, and the housing Walnut.

I think this makes the most sense, in light of the official description by AE:

Mahogany:   reddish brown, grained in black in simulation of highly polished mahogany.
Walnut:   brown, with black grain closely resembling polished dark walnut.

AE_Collector

Quote from: unbeldi on February 23, 2017, 09:04:31 AM
I am sorry, now I see that my question about codes was already answered previously. I was surprised to find it already in my database.
It is the only type 5002 that I have recorded.

No problem, I know that this one had the codes in a picture in the eBay listing but we asked for pictures of the inside to see what ringer was inside.

Quote from: unbeldi on February 23, 2017, 09:04:31 AM
It seems the only phones that have that INSP(ection) marking are always those from Brockville.
Am I correct in finding that whenever the INSP stamp is present, the third code group, in this case OO, does NOT have a digit associated ? I am sure I have not recorded all INSP markings, but this is what I recall from memory, and the only ones that I do have recorded, show so.

It could be that only phones from Phillips have the Inspection stamp. I had never thought of that as I see it frequently. But then, I have a much higher percentage of Canadian made AE phones than most others do.

I have noted that all phones that have the P before the L (or N) indicate a Canadian made phone and in those instances there is never the final digit in the Third Group. This leads me to believe that that final digit somehow indicates something about where the phone was made and since the P at the very beginning indicates it is a Canadian made phone, the final digit isn't required on those phones. This phone doesn't have the P though it is clearly stamped Phillips Electrical Works Brockville Ontario in vermillion ink inside the cover. I will post a picture of the stamp later. There definitely are 40/50 models with the P as well as 41/51 models.

Quote from: unbeldi on February 23, 2017, 09:04:31 AM
The in "1" in "B1" would be a 16.6 Hz harmonic ringer, not 20 Hz synchromonic, which would be "6".

Sorry, I should have looked it up in your chart. I was in too much of a rush!

Quote from: unbeldi on February 23, 2017, 09:04:31 AM
I believe they used the same stamps for "0" and "O", or the stamping tool used the same type. It is always impossible, IMHO, to distinguish them in these codes.  I think we have to decide by position.  This code group is always letters, and the digit if present is either suffixed (usually) or prefixed (rarely).

PS: Unfortunately, this does not make it any easier in deciding whether the straight-line ringer indication uses a zero or an O character. The 1934 catalog seems to indicate it was a capital O, but I believe there are other examples where it seems to be a zero even in print.

Yes, the AO / BO type codes. And on the actual base codes it is entirely possible that the stamp had letters and numbers available in each position and since computers didn't exist then to screw things up it was up to the humans to mix up the letters/digits and the order of them as seen occasionally, particularly in the third code segment.

Terry

AE_Collector

Quote from: unbeldi on February 23, 2017, 09:52:40 AM
By the pictures, I would argue for calling the base Mahogany, and the housing Walnut.

I think this makes the most sense, in light of the official description by AE:

Mahogany:   reddish brown, grained in black in simulation of highly polished mahogany.
Walnut:   brown, with black grain closely resembling polished dark walnut.

I don't think I have noted the official description by AE before. Is that from one if the 4055 sales catalogs? It does agree very close to 100% with how I have clumsily attempted to describe my take of how the two colors should compare with each other. Thanks for posting that. In my mind that is a step closer to figuring out which is which once we manage to nail down a pattern to the A and B codes. I was afraid that we would eventually see a pattern where A color coded sets appear to be the reddish brown pattern and B color coded sets the brown black pattern but we still wouldn't be able to tie the "names" Mahogany and Walnut to the correct color code. That statement by AE makes it pretty obvious in my mind.

Terry

unbeldi

Quote from: AE_Collector on February 23, 2017, 11:42:42 AM
I don't think I have noted the official description by AE before. Is that from one if the 4055 sales catalogs? It does agree very close to 100% with how I have clumsily attempted to describe my take of how the two colors should compare with each other. Thanks for posting that. In my mind that is a step closer to figuring out which is which once we manage to nail down a pattern to the A and B codes. I was afraid that we would eventually see a pattern where A color coded sets appear to be the reddish brown pattern and B color coded sets the brown black pattern but we still wouldn't be able to tie the "names" Mahogany and Walnut to the correct color code. That statement by AE makes it pretty obvious in my mind.

Terry

Yes, it came from 4055-C.

AE_Collector

#21
Thanks, that description really seems to nail it down for me.

Here is the Phillips Electrical Works stamp inside the cover and the drawing that was glued in right above it.

Terry

unbeldi

Quote from: AE_Collector on February 23, 2017, 11:31:22 AM
I have noted that all phones that have the P before the L (or N) indicate a Canadian made phone and in those instances there is never the final digit in the Third Group.
That's the way it seems to me too.

Quote
This leads me to believe that that final digit somehow indicates something about where the phone was made and since the P at the very beginning indicates it is a Canadian made phone, the final digit isn't required on those phones. This phone doesn't have the P though it is clearly stamped Phillips Electrical Works Brockville Ontario in vermillion ink inside the cover. I will post a picture of the stamp later. There definitely are 40/50 models with the P as well as 41/51 models.


The frequency of distribution of the trailing digits in the third group makes it hard to attribute it to different locations, if ''location'' means a different plant.  There seem to be a lot more codes than plants that AE ever documented.  Perhaps it means an assembly line no., #7 being the one that was running most of the time to produce Type 40 telephones.  #7 shows up never actually for wall phones.  The issue of assembly lines may have never been relevant in Brockville for some reason, or they used different QA methods.  The INSP markings seem to have large numbers always, perhaps each inspector had a unique number.

I do consider the question about P as settled that those telephones came from Brockville, but we still don't know what it designates. Perhaps it is a marking requested by a customer. It is conceivable that a large customer such as General Telephone would order sets from both Chicago and Brockville, since they had operations in both countries.  The catalogs specify to place orders to the two sales offices depending on shipping destination.

AE_Collector

#23
Quote from: unbeldi on February 23, 2017, 05:49:47 PM
The frequency of distribution of the trailing digits in the third group makes it hard to attribute it to different locations, if ''location'' means a different plant.  There seem to be a lot more codes than plants that AE ever documented.  Perhaps it means an assembly line no., #7 being the one that was running most of the time to produce Type 40 telephones.  #7 shows up never actually for wall phones.  The issue of assembly lines may have never been relevant in Brockville for some reason, or they used different QA methods.  The INSP markings seem to have large numbers always, perhaps each inspector had a unique number.

Yes you are right, in that time frame there weren't enough plants to cover the number of different codes seen. And it makes almost no sense that 40's would have quite different "location" codes than 50's have. So different assembly lines are a possibility.

Brockville quite likely may have had less total assembly lines. And as you say, thei process may not have required that the product was marked that way. Since Phillips was sort of like a contractor making phones under license or contract for AE, maybe that has something to do with the need for "inspectors".

Quote from: unbeldi on February 23, 2017, 05:49:47 PM
I do consider the question about P as settled that those telephones came from Brockville, but we still don't know what it designates. Perhaps it is a marking requested by a customer. It is conceivable that a large customer such as General Telephone would order sets from both Chicago and Brockville, since they had operations in both countries.  The catalogs specify to place orders to the two sales offices depending on shipping destination.

I think it entirely possible that the P originated as a logical indicator of being made by Phillips. It seems to have continued as a P even after AE Canada took over production at their new plant in Brockville in 1954 but that isn't too hard to believe since it was likely just being used as an indicator of a phone made in Canada and Phillips would no longer be making phones so just stick with the P.

The L and N codes are still a mystery but they are quite likely not similar in purpose to the P and the S since when the P and S show up they are always in conjunction with a L or N. Could there have been one other location in the US used at times for set construction that led to the S code much like the P code in Canada. Leich made AE80's and marked them well as Leich models but could they have made some 40's as well?  Of course there was Northlake in addition to Chicago but they probably just moved the same assembly lines or assigned new assembly line numbers for Northlake since Chicago would be closed soon after the move.

Terry