My WECo 202 won't Dial Out

[unbeldi]

Would it work to disconnect the ringer in the candlestick's subset temporarily to see if it then works to dial? If like Unbeldi says it's being loaded down, then take it out of the mix temporarily and see. Take some pics first so you know where everything goes. It may be more complicated than I know since I don't have any candlestick phones, so I just thought maybe it would work.

Also what about connecting one of your 202s to that same subset and see if it works in place of the candlestick? I don't know if it would be compatible since we don't have any numbers or pictures to go by, to know exactly what you have. But it might help to know if it works with a different phone. Subbing things out can tell you a lot sometimes.

Disconnecting the ringer is an option indeed to eliminate the load presented by the ringer. But remember that this is not as simple as loading.  In fact, the capacitor, shared with the audio circuit, should protect against DC loading, unless the capacitor is leaking.  What is likely more of a problem is the distortion of the dial pulse shapes that this causes.

In order to connect a 202 in place of the candlestick, we have to first know whether the subset is actually an anti-sidetone subset. The candlestick would have to have been converted already to accommodate that.  So we do need to see pictures to make that determination.  The alternative is to collect all marking on the stick and report them.   An anti-sidetone desk stand is either a 120, 140, 150, or 151-type device, and this number is punched into the metal of the perch (neck) on the rear below the transmitter mounting bolt.

Does the candlestick have a four-conductor cord or a three conductor cord?

[unbeldi]

Rex....There is absolutely no reason why your 202 won't work as wired. I have never used a pulse to tone converter, but the way you have it wired it correct. It must be your converter.

The wiring indeed appeared to be correct inside the device.
But this does not mean that it can be connected directly to a telphone line. Under no circumstances will it work.

Yes...the proper way is to use a subset, but your phone WILL work with a modular cord plugged into your phone outlet. It will dial out and you will have audio transmission and reception, but it will not ring.

No. This is impossible.  The dial isn't even connected to the telephone line if only the red and green wires are matched to the line.  Red and green  connect the receiver only.  The transmitter is between red and yellow, so at a minimum you have to use three wires.

Your 202 will be working like a Telephone Technician's test set. No coil, no condenser that the subset gives you, along with the gongs to ring. But it most surely will work...just not as designed....Doug

For that, the device has to be rewired in a different manner.   The transmitter, receiver, and dial pulse switch would have to be wired in series.  (Which is by using the green and yellow wires)

[Rex_S]

Here is the candlestick images.  I can't see the number but I believe it to be a 150 with a 4H dial.  The subset appears to be a WE 534. 

If I can get this to work with my pulse-to-tone converter then maybe I can figure out the 202 issues.  Anyway, this candle stick worked fully including dialing at my friends house who has a carrier that supports rotary.  Any like I said previously, my tone converter works at my house VOIP system with 500 and 5302 sets but doesn't seem to work with this candlestick.

Edit: just to be clear, this phone receives calls, rings, transmits and receives voice fine.  It just won't dial out on the converter.

-Rex

[unbeldi]

Your subset was once a 534A, but it was converted to a 634A in the 1930s.  The induction coil is a 146B which is refurbished and upgraded from a 46B by adding a third wire winding.  This is an anti-sidetone induction coil, and therefore is a 634A subset.  This matches the 150 designation on the candlestick, which also is an upgrade of the 1930s, after the candlesticks were no longer manufactured.  Your stick was a 50AL before the upgrade, adding the 1 to make it 150, indicates the anti-sidetone upgrade.  Same applies to the subset, adding 100 to 534 give 634.

Your device also has the upgraded ('bull-dog') transmitter, if I saw that correctly in the dark areas, that was available starting ca. 1935.  This looks like a very nice set. Congrats.

So, yes, you can substitute a 202 for the candlestick.  Connect it in the identical manner.  The colors of the conductors in the mounting cord should be the same, black, red, green, and yellow.
But you have to disconnect the candlestick first, they cannot be connected at the same time.

[Rex_S]

My candlestick only has 3 wires (yellow, red, green) going to the subset.

[unbeldi]

My candlestick only has 3 wires (yellow, red, green) going to the subset.

Oh really?

Well, then it is not quite matched.  I did notice that the cord did not seem to be the right kind, judging from the metal clamp. Indeed it seems to be a line cord.  In that case, the telephone does not have anti-sidetone compensation.  I would find a new cord and rewire it properly, if indeed it says 150AL on the perch.

[Rex_S]

Progress.  I connected the 202 to the subset only connecting the red,green,and yellow wires.  I left the black wire from the desk set to subset disconnected.  The phone works perfectly!  Dials our, rings, receives calls.

So that begs the question of why doesn't the candle stick dial using this tone converter?

[unbeldi]

Progress.  I connected the 202 to the subset only connecting the red,green,and yellow wires.  I left the black wire from the desk set to subset disconnected.  The phone works perfectly!  Dials our, rings, receives calls.

So that begs the question of why doesn't the candle stick dial using this tone converter?

You can connect the black wire to the BK terminal in the subset, that would make it perfect.

It may be that the dial is slightly out of specification.  They are supposed to generate pulses at a rate between ca. 8 and 12 pulses per second.  These old phones are never fast, always slow because a) dirt, dust, sticky gears, and b) from wear on the governor mechanism.  I have had some that only ran at 7-8 pps, and that is just stretching the specs too low often.  The No.2, 4, and 5 dials can be adjusted though.

[Rex_S]

Thanks for all the help!  I've learned I need subsets for the 202s.  Since the candle stick dials on a rotary carrier and not with the tone converter, I'm guessing based on the suggestions that it may be a timing or cleaning issue that the converter is more sensitive too.  That gives me something to work on.

Thanks again everyone!

[poplar1]

Here is the candlestick images.  I can't see the number but I believe it to be a 150 with a 4H dial. 

The original model number (possibly 20-AL, 40-AL, 50-AL, or 51-AL) has a line through it, as shown in the photo. The new model number should be on the front or side front of the "perch." It may be 151-AL, or 51-AL Doubtful that it's "150" since that is not a good number for Western Electric desk phones. (Northern Electric did convert some of their N-50 ALs to N-150 ALs, since they never manufactured 51-AL model.)

Perhaps you could show the hookswitch contacts and wiring. In any case, someone has modified the wiring recently, since the two  white plastic Dracon wire connectors did not exist in the 20s - 50s.

As others have suggested, check the dial speed by dialing zero on this 4H dial, and the dial on your 202, releasing both dials simultaneously. You may want to dial several numbers on each dial before making the comparison.

[Rex_S]

Poplar, I was going by the Old-Time Telephones book! By Ralph Meyer which lists the WE 150-AL.  See image.  I'll try the timing things.

[poplar1]

What number is stamped on the front or side of the perch of your phone? I have owned over 100 Western Electric dial desk stands, but none of them was stamped "150-AL"

[Jack Ryan]

Poplar, I was going by the Old-Time Telephones book! By Ralph Meyer which lists the WE 150-AL.  See image.  I'll try the timing things.

The back of the perch should tell you what you have. It looks like a 50AL to me. I don't think there is any such thing as a WE 150AL, it is a 151AL

Sorry if I am repeating stuff but:
1. look at the back of the perch - 50AL, 51AL or 151AL. If it was converted it might be a bit "messy" with an added "1" or some crossing out.
2. look at the front of the base - if there is patent information front and centre the base at least started out as a 51AL. If the writing is to either side, the base started out as a 50AL.

Jack

[Rex_S]

Due to the re-painting or powder coating, I can't read the number on the back of the perch.  There are no other numbers on the side or front of the perch.

Based on the book, there is a 150-AL.  However, the front of my base has a latest patent date of 1920 so it must be a converted 51-AL based on the text of the book.  Or maybe it wasn't converted as it is 3 wire to subset.  The book states the converted sets were made 4 wire.

[Jack Ryan]

I believe the book is wrong - there is no WE 150AL. (There is a Northern Electric 150AL but it is different).

There are no terminal blocks in the base of your set - the 51AL has one and the 151AL has two. If your base has patent information at the front in the centre it *was* a 51AL but the terminal block has been removed. It may also be made of parts so you won't know if it should be wired with a 4 conductor mounting cord to an AST subset unless you remove the hook switch and check the contact configuration.

I butted in here so tell me if I am off on a tangent. The subject is "WE 202" but we are talking about desk stands.

Jack