Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Pay Station Telephones => Western Electric Pay Phones => Topic started by: MagicMo on April 21, 2013, 12:53:20 PM

Title: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MagicMo on April 21, 2013, 12:53:20 PM
I found another payphone last night. This one is marked as a Gray PayStation, see pics. I don't see any model numbers on it anywhere but it has the date of: 4-29 marked on it twice and the letter F. Anyone know about this phone?
Thanks,
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: AE_Collector on April 21, 2013, 01:03:31 PM
I am guessing that it s a fairly old one but not 1929. Maybe 4-59?

It looks as though it is attached to a desk or wall mount? Some of those mounts are highly prized.

Terry
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 21, 2013, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on April 21, 2013, 01:03:31 PM
I am guessing that it s a fairly old one but not 1929. Maybe 4-59?

It looks as though it is attached to a desk or wall mount? Some of those mounts are highly prized.

Terry

It is clearly marked twice as 4-29. Maybe that is not a date? I don't know?
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: AE_Collector on April 21, 2013, 01:11:34 PM
Someone else will have to give their opinion but I don't think that 3 slot phones go anywhere near that far back in time.

Any markings on the back and is it mounted to a separate piece on the bottom and back?

Terry
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 21, 2013, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on April 21, 2013, 01:11:34 PM
Someone else will have to give their opinion but I don't think that 3 slot phones go anywhere near that far back in time.

Terry

Maybe it's just old parts or something put together, it just looks like it all goes together, I dunno.
Thanks
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 21, 2013, 01:19:10 PM
Nothing on the back. It does look like the back/bottom could be easily separated, the back and bottom are all one piece. The bottom has a number: P 295374
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 21, 2013, 01:31:21 PM
Upon closer inspection, on the front panel I found a faint number: 50 C.
Does that help??
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: AE_Collector on April 21, 2013, 02:04:40 PM
50C is probably just the instruction card holders part number. Someone will know what that back piece is called, something like a 172? That might be worth some money but I am not much into this stuff. Someone here will know more.

Terry
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: rdelius on April 21, 2013, 03:59:45 PM
Yours is an old 50 series set upgraded with  a handset I see a cast iron upper housing and backboard which are on earlier units. If you remove the instruction card, you should find mounting holes for the transmitter. inside photos would be helpfull. Look for a 10g key to open it. You might have the older parts to convert it back in your collection.That 29 is a date.that backboard and base assy is valueable by itself .This is not an ordinary 3 slot but needs to be put back as built
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: kleenax on April 22, 2013, 04:24:09 PM
Quote from: MagicMo on April 21, 2013, 12:53:20 PM
I found another payphone last night.
Thanks,
Mo

Mo;

You (again) have found a "Holy Grail" for vintage telephone collectors! The L-shaped cast shelf that the payphone is mounted on is a Model 139, and was made so that you could mount a payphone right on a flat surface such as a table or counter and bolt it down so that it couldn't be stolen. This bracket alone (I would sell it separately) is worth $400-$600 by ITSELF.

As for the payphone itself, it is also rather sought-after being of the VERY early cast-iron grays. I would remove it from the L-bracket so that you can photograph it better. As Terry or someone mentioned, you will need to find a key marked "10G" to open the top-housing to see just how old the internals are. With it having a handset mounted, it will probably have been updated to 10-cent service and have a stainless coin-chute mounted instead of the original cast-lead chute.

Additionally, Terry is (unfortunately) NOT correct on the "4-29" date; 3-slot payphones were indeed around at that time. The MOST sought-after 3-slot "50A", Gray's first "real" 3-slot as well all know it, is listed in the Gray 1913 catalog; I am searching for the actual patent dates.

By what I see, it looks like one of those "150GJ" or something like that. Still, it has some very desirable components like a cast-iron top.

Photos when I can locate them will be posted.
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: kleenax on April 22, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Here's the 1st patent that I could lay my hands on that shows a 3-slot payphone patented on behalf of Gray (by George A. Long) on July 5, 1921. I have copies of earlier patents but I can't locate them right now (on the wrong computer!).

Anyway Mo, your's has been "updated", and has some OLD/Original parts there that are rather sought after. Especially note that your's still has the (very desirable) open coin-return, and not a later (less desirable) pull-down bucket. THAT indicates a old bottom housing that has not been updated (thankfully).
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 05:51:49 PM
Thank you for all the info, I knew someone here would know about it. I will look for the key and open it up and I will post pics of the internals. It sure is a heavy phone.
Thanks Again!
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: kleenax on April 22, 2013, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 05:51:49 PM
Thank you for all the info, I knew someone here would know about it. I will look for the key and open it up and I will post pics of the internals. It sure is a heavy phone.
Thanks Again!
Mo

It's heavy cause it's solid cast-iron; just like a boat anchor! ;-)

If you don't have a 10G key, I can send you one to use, but you gotta send it back (or trade me something for it :)
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 06:22:58 PM
Thank You for the offer!! I appreciate it. Let me do some searching and I will let you know.
Thanks
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 07:19:19 PM
Wouldn't ya know it. He has a 10g key! I opened it up. It def is not original. It looks like it is a 174G,. This was in his brothers bar in Chicago back in the day. Do you know anything about a 174g??
Thanks,
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 07:33:14 PM
Talk about confusing!!

I found one more date of 4-29.
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: Mr. Bones on April 22, 2013, 07:55:24 PM
Wow! :o

     What a cool payphone! Great find, Mo!

     I wish all modified phones had the BSP references in them; it would save me from asking lots of dumb questions here! ;)

Best regards!
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 10:25:18 PM
I took off the back and it shows a 139A. The back of the phone shows 174G modified. So, can anyone tell me about this phone??
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: AE_Collector on April 22, 2013, 10:46:37 PM
Quote from: kleenax on April 22, 2013, 04:24:09 PM
Additionally, Terry is (unfortunately) NOT correct on the "4-29" date; 3-slot payphones were indeed around at that time.

Fortunately (not unfortunately) I would say! (for Mo and whomever winds up owning this one).  I had no idea that the 3 slot design went back that far in time. I would have guessed soon after WW2!

Thanks for all the info Ray.

Terry
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 22, 2013, 11:45:18 PM
You can try looking up the Practice for C64.24 fig 7A.
There is a decent chance it is in the TCI library.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: poplar1 on April 23, 2013, 12:54:06 AM
Quote from: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 10:25:18 PM
I took off the back and it shows a 139A. The back of the phone shows 174G modified. So, can anyone tell me about this phone??


The 139A is not part of the phone, as Ray pointed out.

The 174G, is a "Conversion" (CONV). Like the 5302 and the 151-AL, there were no "new" 174Gs ever produced. Note the 1952 date on the coin track. That is about the time that calls went from a nickel (5 cents) to a dime (10 cents). The original lead coin track was changed to a 10-cent stainless steel track, and an F-type handset was added.

The conversion was done by the Western Electric Distributing House or possibly by the Bell operating company. The ones used in New York City have a rectangular plate on the front to cover the holes where the original 10A transmitter mount was. The plate was installed because the instruction card holder was mounted above the dial, unlike yours pictured here.

As Ray pointed out, this  phone originally had a separate transmitter on the front and a receiver like the ones on a candlestick. It was probably originally a 50-G for 5 cent pre-pay service.

The fact that it has the Gray + WE names on the front mean that this part was made before 1934, when WE started making their own pay phones instead of buying them from Gray.

I will disagree with about 99% of the collectors in arguing that this phone should not be unconverted (don't they call that backsliding?). It is easy enough to find a 10A transmitter mount, cup and transmitter, also the receiver.  But the cast coin gauge, lead coin track, original hook are another matter.  Besides, this is the best marked 174G I have ever seen.

The last two 174Gs on Ebay went for $1500-$2500 (not including the non-payer who bid one of them up to over $5000). I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone was paying  that much just to get a "parts phone."

I do understand why some people like to "restore" these to 150-G. I understand that some people look at this and think "hack job." If I had more than one 174-G and no 50-Gs or 150-Gs, I might take the worst 174-G and "restore" it to a 150-G. But I won't be doing that to the one 174-G I have.

By the way, I am also not unconverting my 5302s to 302s or my 151-ALs to 50-ALs, 51-ALs, 20-Bs, etc.
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: erik666 on April 23, 2013, 07:33:18 AM
it is a good one MO  what hand set is on it ?
I like that it has a original reciever hook and I noticed that it has the old style AE dial shroud (Z and operator)
wonderful patina !
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: DavePEI on April 23, 2013, 07:38:53 AM
Hi Maureen:

I have to agree with David in that this phone shouldn't be brought back to original. The reason? Because the phone and its changes are so very well documented through its stampings. Its history can be read through the stampings, making it a very interesting phone. Nice one!

Dave
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: kleenax on April 23, 2013, 12:11:38 PM
Quote from: MagicMo on April 22, 2013, 07:19:19 PM
Wouldn't ya know it. He has a 10g key! I opened it up. It def is not original. It looks like it is a 174G,. This was in his brothers bar in Chicago back in the day. Do you know anything about a 174g??
Thanks,
Mo

OMG!  Mo, you really know how to hit one "out of the park"!!

A 174G?  WOW!

Geez-O-Petes!  Probably a $2,500.00++ phone there kid!   And it has got to be the BEST-marked 174G that I have ever been fortunate enough to view, honestly; they are simply that rare!  Yes OK, I will use the "R-word"; this puppy is a RARE phone!  

I have seen more 50A examples than I have 174Gs in this condition; no kidding!

I read this thread this morning (both pages), and Mr. Willingham (poplar1) knows more about these than I ever will, and he is 100% correct. It is indeed "Original", right down to the BSP quote stamped on the inside. And to see the top-housing and the backboard properly stamped is unbelievable; truly a rare-rare find.

And I agree with David (Willingham) 110% - This example should be left in EXACTLY this condition; it is indeed that rare even though it IS technically made-up of older/newer components.

The fact that it is a bonafide WESTERN ELECTRIC documented "upgrade" (to 174G specs) is where the High-value and desirability lies in this one.

Your father is STILL taking care of you to this day :)  That should make you smile  :) I have to think it would surely make him smile as well!

Now, if you are going to list it, for eBay purposes, get a good photo from the front of the phone, without the top-housing mounted, so people can see the entire insides. Then, also get a good close-up of that 2-coil relay that sits in there just on the top of the lower-housing. That bolted together coin hopper behind the 2-coil relay is also the very early/desirable variety, so the photos should show that.

Excellent fortune once again!

Oh, and by all means, sell the 139A bracket separately.  And one last thing; the coin chute within is CRAMMED with coins; empty it out!

Regards,

Ray Kotke (aka - Kleenax)
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: DavePEI on April 23, 2013, 01:48:43 PM
Hi All:

I heard from Stan Schreier regarding this phone, and he had the following things to say:

"Good morning.  I passed by the Rotary Forum and read the thread about
the 174G.  A few quick comments.

       1- That 3-slot is not a Gray paystation, it's a Gray/Western
paystation.  Yes, there are many differences aside from the value and the
embossing above the vault door
.  

Gray/Westerns are more collectable and hence worth more. See picture attached.

           The 50G GRAY on the left is wired with solid wire. The Gray/
Western on the right is wired with stranded wire.

           The hopper in the Gray (left) is cast.  The hopper in the
Gray/Western (right) is sheet metal.

           The coin relay in the Gray has a shield over the left hand coil
that is riveted to the frame.  The Gray/Western has a shield that snaps onto
the left hand coil.

           The purpose of the shield is to prevent the point of the bottom
edge of the top assembly from damaging the coil when the top is put on the
payphone.

           If the locks are original to the payphone they are probably
marked The long Lock Co. for the Gray. The lock on the Gray/Western would
probably be marked Western Electric.

       2-  3-slots that are embossed Gray Mfg. Co were produced for sale to
independent telephone companies.  The ones embossed Gray/Western were
manufactured for the Bell System.

       3- Full size 3-slots date back to 1912. They were manual prepay.
Both Gray and Gray/Westerns were built even back then.

       4- I'm sure that 174G is so well marked because it was used as a
sample.  It's the 'AFTER' that probably sat around a modification shop.

       5- From what I see in the pictures the payphone appears to have been
originally a 50G.  The only thing that could be done to bring it back in
time without spending a small fortune on parts (that probably are
unavailable) would be to make it a 55G.  A 55G is a 10 cent, 2- piecer.  The
switch-hook would have to be changed to a two piece type with a gate
operating arm.  An 'X' terminal assembly would have to be added above the
hopper.  That's not a large investment.  Is it worth doing-who knows.
If a collector doesn't own a two piece payphone I'd say the answer is yes.
Otherwise I'd leave it the way it is.  As the payphone sits there's nothing
special about it.  Aside from a few obviously unofficial markings it's
just another example of  'poetic license' used to build a 174G.

       6- The 139 bracket is the second version.  Not as valuable as the
older one but still sought after by collectors.

Stay well.
Stan
"
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 23, 2013, 04:54:17 PM
Thanks for all the info. I appreciate everyone looking into it for me and thank Stan for his input.
With all due respect, I appreciate the opinions of those who know more about this stuff than myself (which would probably be everyone here) but opinions are not always absolute.

I know I do not know much about phones but I strongly disagree with Stan's comment: "As the payphone sits there's nothing
special about it.  Aside from a few obviously unofficial markings it's just another example of  'poetic license' used to build a 174G."
I don't quite know what he meant by the comment other than it's nothing special and the markings may not be authentic. Who knows? He could be right. BUT........................................... With that being said, if I listened to the opinions of people who I knew to be big time antique telephone collectors who I sought out after I found the Picturephone (long before I found my way to this forum) I would have been better off to scrap the whole thing and trash it. Thank God I knew better.
Being an artist myself (I am an oil painter) I look at a "poetic license" as a way to heighten my work, think outside the box and have freedom to intentionally deviate from the norm and that is what this phone represents to me. Just like the Picturephone I know this phone is something unique, special and brilliant just they way it is.
Thanks for all your help and knowledge! :)
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 23, 2013, 05:35:27 PM
Quote from: erik666 on April 23, 2013, 07:33:18 AM
it is a good one MO  what hand set is on it ?
I like that it has a original reciever hook and I noticed that it has the old style AE dial shroud (Z and operator)
wonderful patina !

Thanks Erik,
The handset says F2
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 23, 2013, 06:07:15 PM
I have found several vault doors to the change box. Is there someway to tell which one may belong to this Payphone?
Thanks
MO
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: MagicMo on April 23, 2013, 07:42:55 PM
a better pic showing the bsp number
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: DavePEI on April 23, 2013, 09:09:35 PM
From Stan:

A copy of BSP C64.241 as mentioned above!

1st file, BSP

2nd file fig. 7

Dave
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: AE_Collector on April 23, 2013, 11:52:19 PM
Quote from: MagicMo on April 23, 2013, 04:54:17 PM
I know I do not know much about phones but I strongly disagree with Stan's comment: "As the payphone sits there's nothing special about it."

I am not entirely certain either but keeping in mind that Stan is a major authority on everything Payphone, I would say that he was trying to say "for what it is (a very rare and desirable antique 3 slot payphone) it is a typical example or that it has no particlular outstanding features such as some particular component that is absolutely never seen or a one off experimantal component".

For most of us it (a 174G payphone) is outstanding on it's own but for a 174G this one is typical except that maybe it is much better marked than most others seen.

That would be my interpretation of Stan's comment.

Terry
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MagicMo on April 24, 2013, 12:21:47 AM
Yeah, sometimes I base my conclusions on emotions rather than the facts. I totally agree with you Terry. 
And, I find I'm reluctant to let go of the illusion that I know more than I really do! LOL
;)Mo
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: poplar1 on April 24, 2013, 12:26:07 AM
Stan is by far the most knowledgeable collector of pay phones. He also has examples of all the early Gray and Gray/Western pay phones, so he can show us the differences with photos of his own phones.

I think that he believes that converting a 50-G to a 174G is about as bad as taking a 20-B candlestick phone with good nickel and stripping it down to the bare brass then making a lamp out of it.

Perhaps where we disagree is that I see a distinction between the conversions such as Mo's phone that were done at Western Electric... and the many other modified pay phones sold on Ebay.

These latter usually have the coin relay taken out and a ringer or network  installed in its place. Locks are sometimes replaced with a crude assortment of screws and washers. Sometimes a sheet metal screw is used in a new hole drilled on the side of the upper housing. One company usually put a fake instruction card (and no plastic cover) with instructions for area code 151, which does not exist. (No area codes start with 1 or 0 and originally all had 1 or 0 as the second digit.)

These phones not converted by WE are definitely worth restoring, starting with removing the junky bolts and fake instruction card.

The pay phones marked "150GJ-55" that show up on Ebay were also not converted in the Western Electric shops. These have been discussed in other posts.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: kleenax on April 24, 2013, 06:21:08 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on April 24, 2013, 12:26:07 AM
Stan is by far the most knowledgeable collector of pay phones. Perhaps where we disagree is that I see a distinction between the conversions such as Mo's phone that were done at Western Electric... and the many other modified pay phones sold on Ebay.

You are RIGHT-ON-THE-MONEY with that philosophy David. I simply cannot see the validity or logic in the arguement that there is "nothing special" about this apparently 100% proper - Model 174G.

Scarcity is normally measured by the number of examples (in this case payphones of a specific Model) that still exist in their "original" configuration.

A properly assembled and cataloged Model 174G (such as Mo's) is no less "original" than that nebulous (previously whole) Model 50G that allegedly gave up it's parts to become the 174G.

The very fact that Western Electric actually created bonafide BSP documentation to chronicle the creation of the model is all the proof one should require. After all, it was THEIR child, not our's that they named "174G"!

I do agree that Stan has encyclopedic knowledge of vintage payphones, but I vehemently disagree that this 174G isn't "anything special"; hell, it is as RARE as Hen's Teeth!

Just list it on eBay, and you will see just how sought-after it really is.

Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 24, 2013, 07:24:45 PM
Excellent discussion.  Once again I am reminded that I don't even know what I don't know.  Great information, thank you all.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 25, 2013, 05:55:42 AM
Stan Schreier asked that I post this response.   I would like to promote the discussion on this particular PayStation.  Perhaps this topic should be and can be later moved to a Pay Station board.  Here is Stan's reply:

Apparently, I seem to be the only one that knows (or remembers) what a Western Electric 174G actually is.  The 174G was a catch-all designation for a handset, 3-slot, 10 cent, prepay paystation, remanufactured from ANY- I'll repeat that, ANY model 2-piece Western Electric paystation.

   Ray, exactly which 174G would you like to discuss?  A 174G made from a 50G like the one mentioned on the forum?   A 174G made from a 150G?  A 174G made from a 161A or a 174G made from any 160C series 3-slot?  All these 174Gs ARE DIFFERENT!  Each one has it's own documentation, pardon me................DIAGRAM.  So Ray, which one is "as rare as hen's teeth" be specific!  Ray, over the years I've owned 8 or 9 174s how many have you owned?

   Take a look at the BSP I sent Dave Hunter (that he was good enough to post last night)  That's the BSP referred to on the back of the 174 being discussed.  Notice, it's just a diagram.   Why is the BSP number on the back of that payphone?  Hey, you think maybe it's because some 60 years ago a guy at Western Electric said "let's print the BSP number on the back of this 174G so it will bring more money on Ebay"?  I don't think so!!!

   That particular 174 was A SAMPLE that was used in a modification shop. When a 50G came in to be remanufactured there was probably a 'work order' that stated 'modify as per C64.241 Fig. 7'.

   I'm sure there were 4 or 5 SAMPLES in that shop.  Each one with a different BSP number printed on its backs because each of the sample 174s was a different model 2 piece paystation originally.  The guy rebuilding the 3-slot just found the right sample with the right number on the back and physically copied it.

   So, what does any of this have to do with collecting antique payphones? It all depends on your definition of collecting.  If by collecting you mean accumulating, then none of the above means a thing.  If your intention is to build the biggest pile of crap possible, then a large quantity of 174Gs (all different) is for you.  However, if you are interested in only collecting payphones that are RELEVANT on a historic, technical, or engineering level then any 174G is so much junk.  Its only value is what it was made FROM, not what it was made INTO.

   Years ago (not really that many) there was a glut of 174s.  All the major payphone players were buying them off of Ebay for $500-$700, me included.    Couldn't get them torn apart fast enough.  There were plenty of them  because the Bell System needed handset payphones. That's the reason 2-piecers are so rare, they were torn apart to be reincarnated as handset payphones.(174s).  I was able to complete some of the rarest 3-slots in my collection because of parts harvested from 174s.

   I have in my collection every FIRST VERSION Western Electric 50, 150, 160, 180, 190 and 200 series 3-slot.  I don't own or want any 170s.

   If you look in Ron Knappen's payphone book there are 21 photos of paystations from my collection.  Ron's book isn't exactly an encyclopedia but it's as close as we're going to come.  Hey Ray, is that the encyclopedic knowledge you referred to?

  Ray, when the fools on Ebay become the final word on antique payphone collecting it will be time for me to find a different interest.  The world of Ebay has nothing to do with fact or reality!

Stan
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: kleenax on April 25, 2013, 05:29:42 PM
Quote from: Dennis Markham on April 25, 2013, 05:55:42 AM
Stan Schreier asked that I post this response.   I would like to promote the discussion on this particular PayStation.  Perhaps this topic should be and can be later moved to a Pay Station board.  Here is Stan's reply:

Apparently, I seem to be the only one that knows (or remembers) what a Western Electric 174G actually is.  The 174G was a catch-all designation for a handset, 3-slot, 10 cent, prepay paystation, remanufactured from ANY- I'll repeat that, ANY model 2-piece Western Electric paystation.

   Ray, exactly which 174G would you like to discuss?  A 174G made from a 50G like the one mentioned on the forum?   A 174G made from a 150G?  A 174G made from a 161A or a 174G made from any 160C series 3-slot?  All these 174Gs ARE DIFFERENT!  Each one has it's own documentation, pardon me................DIAGRAM.  So Ray, which one is "as rare as hen's teeth" be specific!  Ray, over the years I've owned 8 or 9 174s how many have you owned?

   Take a look at the BSP I sent Dave Hunter (that he was good enough to post last night)  That's the BSP referred to on the back of the 174 being discussed.  Notice, it's just a diagram.   Why is the BSP number on the back of that payphone?  Hey, you think maybe it's because some 60 years ago a guy at Western Electric said "let's print the BSP number on the back of this 174G so it will bring more money on Ebay"?  I don't think so!!!

   That particular 174 was A SAMPLE that was used in a modification shop. When a 50G came in to be remanufactured there was probably a 'work order' that stated 'modify as per C64.241 Fig. 7'.

   I'm sure there were 4 or 5 SAMPLES in that shop.  Each one with a different BSP number printed on its backs because each of the sample 174s was a different model 2 piece paystation originally.  The guy rebuilding the 3-slot just found the right sample with the right number on the back and physically copied it.

   So, what does any of this have to do with collecting antique payphones? It all depends on your definition of collecting.  If by collecting you mean accumulating, then none of the above means a thing.  If your intention is to build the biggest pile of crap possible, then a large quantity of 174Gs (all different) is for you.  However, if you are interested in only collecting payphones that are RELEVANT on a historic, technical, or engineering level then any 174G is so much junk.  Its only value is what it was made FROM, not what it was made INTO.

   Years ago (not really that many) there was a glut of 174s.  All the major payphone players were buying them off of Ebay for $500-$700, me included.    Couldn't get them torn apart fast enough.  There were plenty of them  because the Bell System needed handset payphones. That's the reason 2-piecers are so rare, they were torn apart to be reincarnated as handset payphones.(174s).  I was able to complete some of the rarest 3-slots in my collection because of parts harvested from 174s.

   I have in my collection every FIRST VERSION Western Electric 50, 150, 160, 180, 190 and 200 series 3-slot.  I don't own or want any 170s.

   If you look in Ron Knappen's payphone book there are 21 photos of paystations from my collection.  Ron's book isn't exactly an encyclopedia but it's as close as we're going to come.  Hey Ray, is that the encyclopedic knowledge you referred to?

  Ray, when the fools on Ebay become the final word on antique payphone collecting it will be time for me to find a different interest.  The world of Ebay has nothing to do with fact or reality!

Stan

REPOST this to Stan if you would Dennis, since he's apparently much too paranoid to join listserves himself  :o

I absolutely LOVE any opportunity whatsoever Stan gives me to "jerk his chain"! ;D
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: kleenax on April 25, 2013, 05:39:59 PM
Now Stan has me confused (and possibly others) about his collection of the "rarest" payphones ???

What is the difference between Stan's "rarest" payphones that are "made-up" of pieces and parts scrounged from his eBay purchases and a 174G (made of various parts)?

I don't recall ever seeing a Bell-System-Practice (BSP) generated since the END of the Bell System (post-1986) that would have documented the authenticity of the dismantling of 174's to make "rarer" phones out of them. Wouldn't THAT practice indeed make Stan's "rarest" payphones simply a "made-up" example and not really authentic?

Food for thought really.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: DavePEI on April 25, 2013, 07:17:17 PM
Quote from: kleenax on April 25, 2013, 05:39:59 PM
Now Stan has me confused (and possibly others) about his collection of the "rarest" payphones ???

What is the difference between Stan's "rarest" payphones that are "made-up" of pieces and parts scrounged from his eBay purchases and a 174G (made of various parts)?

I don't recall ever seeing a Bell-System-Practice (BSP) generated since the END of the Bell System (post-1986) that would have documented the authenticity of the dismantling of 174's to make "rarer" phones out of them. Wouldn't THAT practice indeed make Stan's "rarest" payphones simply a "made-up" example and not really authentic?

Food for thought really.
C'mon, Guys. Time for a TRUCE! You are both experts, and you have both made your points, and it has been educational for all of us. You both have differing views. Play nice! :)

If Stan doesn't want to join the Forum in person, we appreciate his passing along his notes. That is fine, and that is his choice. I, for one will always be glad to post his comments, as they are very helpful and educational. Likewise are yours, Ray.

Dave
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MagicMo on May 05, 2013, 04:43:35 PM
Hello,
I found this vault door for a payphone. Does anyone know if it goes with this payphone? And, if not, how do I know what door goes with it?
Thanks
Mo
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: poplar1 on May 05, 2013, 06:40:26 PM
It appears to be the right door. Although the lock fits, it is actually a 29A L22 from the top part of a single slot pay phone. That's a generic lock but only 29A L22 keys will fit. The vault doors normally have a lock with a serial number.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: G-Man on May 05, 2013, 06:43:49 PM
Quote from: MagicMo on May 05, 2013, 04:43:35 PM
Hello,
I found this vault door for a payphone. Does anyone know if it goes with this payphone? And, if not, how do I know what door goes with it?
Thanks
Mo

Hello Mo-
Even tho some "experts" may disagree, the flat-type vault door in your photo is very collectable to collectors of early payphones.

However the lock (29A L-22) is more recent is intended for a modern single-slot upper-housing. It in itself may have some value since it was used by Ill Bell payphones.

Despite the comment of others, I agree with Ray that your 174 is rare and collectable; certainly worth a considerable amount to the right collector. I would not characterize it as a "mutt" since it was simply recycled by the Bell System for a specific purpose and an avid collector would certainly want to add it to his collection.

You may want to contact other extremely knowledgeable collectors (in addition to Ray) such as Jim Engle and Dick Pitzer. They are highly regarded experts regarding payphones in the collector's communities and have huge collections of early coin telephones of their own.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MagicMo on May 06, 2013, 12:34:25 AM
Thanks for the info. ;)
Mo
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: kleenax on May 06, 2013, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: MagicMo on May 06, 2013, 12:34:25 AM
Thanks for the info. ;)
Mo


Hey Mo;

That door that you found is indeed a nice Western Electric door (original black ones are hard to come by),  and it would look perfect mounted on that 174G. I also have a correct lock & matching key for it (14A or 14B I think).

Having said that, I would mount a Gray-type door on it with a 12B or 10L lock mounted. Photo attached of the door I have mentioned. If you cannot find one, I have one here that you could use. This vault door that is shown in the photo below would have been the vault door that was originally mounted to that Gray/Western bottom (I think).  Can you see the differences in the 2 doors? The most obvious is that one is cast iron, and the other is pressed steel.

Let me see if I can make a side-by-side of the vault doors for easier ID'ing for the next posting.

One last thing: contrary to what some say, I am NOT an expert by any means; merely an observant collector and vintage telephone aficionado  ;)
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MagicMo on May 06, 2013, 11:18:06 PM
Thanks Ray,
I'm sure I will come across the right one here. I just had to know what to look for. I found another cast iron door for a WE too. I just wanted to know what to look for. I think he had a box of door locks, when I saw them the first time I didn't know what they were used for! I will look through them.

I found a 195G Payphone. Do you know anything about that particular phone?
Thanks
Mo 
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: G-Man on May 07, 2013, 12:52:59 AM
Your father was incredible, he knew exactly what to collect!!

BELL SYSTEM PRACTICES                                                  SECTION C42.143
Station Installation and Maintenance                                  Issue 1, September, 1952
                                                                                       AT&T Co Standard


COIN COLLECTORS
CONVERSIONS 191G TO D-179432
AND 195G TO D-179433
[/b]http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3536-c42-143-i1-coin-collectors-conversions



Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MagicMo on May 07, 2013, 04:22:25 PM
Here is some pictures of the 195G.
Most of the dates are from the 60's.Not sure how to decipher this one.
If you have any knowledge regarding this please post.
Thanks,
Mo

PS. Inside where the coin box looks like the date of: III-52
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MagicMo on May 07, 2013, 06:55:13 PM
I also found this vault door. Not sure if it belongs to this one?
Mo
Title: Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
Post by: Greg G. on May 08, 2013, 02:27:16 PM
Quote from: kleenax on April 23, 2013, 12:11:38 PM
...And one last thing; the coin chute within is CRAMMED with coins; empty it out!

Regards,

Ray Kotke (aka - Kleenax)

I'm anxious to see those coins, I'll bet they're collectible by themselves!  I'm picturing some pre-1964 coins or better.      
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: kleenax on May 18, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
Quote from: MagicMo on May 06, 2013, 11:18:06 PM
Thanks Ray,
I'm sure I will come across the right one here.

I found a 195G Payphone. Do you know anything about that particular phone?
Thanks
Mo 

Uh-oh;

Are you setting me up?  Remember what happened the last time I told you about payphones! :o  ;D
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MMikeJBenN27 on December 05, 2022, 04:05:03 AM
It probably is 1929, updated in the early 50s, as post war payphones had that pivoting coin return bucket and didn't say "Grey Pay Station".  You have a prized item!  Please, don't "upgrade" it or throw any of the internals away!

Mike
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: Payphone installer on December 25, 2022, 08:08:53 PM
195 is a post pay it never had a relay. Switch hook pileup is original fiber terminal is from a 233G. It is restorable but you are missing parts. parts. Black vault doors are rare also.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: MMikeJBenN27 on December 26, 2022, 02:19:47 AM
This is a 1929, but has been refurbished and upgraded to use a handset.  Originally, it had a separate transmitter attached to the front, where the square instruction card later was, and the receiver was just that, a receiver.

Mike
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: FABphones on December 26, 2022, 02:28:30 AM
Quote...Please, don't "upgrade" it or throw any of the internals away!

Interesting topic, but as the thread is more than nine years old the phone has likely since found a new home.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: poplar1 on December 26, 2022, 04:43:53 PM
Quote from: Payphone installer on December 25, 2022, 08:08:53 PM195 is a post pay it never had a relay. Switch hook pileup is original fiber terminal is from a 233G. It is restorable but you are missing parts. parts. Black vault doors are rare also.

I thought 191G, 195G, and 197G were all prepay.
Title: Re: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone
Post by: Stan S on December 26, 2022, 08:13:15 PM
Poplar
A 195G is indeed prepay.
The picture of the payphone in this thread has been upgraded (destroyed). The only indication left of that payphone ever being a 195G is orange ink.