News:

"The phone is a remarkably complex, simple device,
and very rarely ever needs repairs, once you fix them." - Dan/Panther

Main Menu

Western Electric 302 Sluggish Ringer

Started by bellsystem, June 27, 2017, 10:08:15 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

unbeldi

#15
Do not bend the clapper rod.
On these early ringers which hold the clapper 'ball' with a loop of the 'wire' wrapped around the ball in a groove, the rod is supposed to bend downward just a little, so that the center of mass of the ball is inline with the rest of the clapper rod toward the pivot point. PS:  Not sure that is actually factual, it may not be aligned, looking at some of my pictures, which I will attach in a moment.

With the ringer at rest, the clapper ball should be ca 1/16 of an inch away from the gong, not touching it.

unbeldi

#16
Looking at the pictures, it does appear that the stroke limiting arm has been adjusted previously to lower the volume of the gong by limit the permitted travel of the armature.   Follow AGB's advice to back it off slightly until proper volume is obtained.

Here is a properly adjusted 1939 ringer:

bellsystem

I did not straighten the clapper rod as I already said - because then it would not be able to strike the gongs, yes.

The clapper is NOT touching any of the gongs. It is very CLOSE to the top gong, but not touching it.

I moved the bias spring and that has made the ringer louder. I don't think it needs to be any louder. I just need to fix the vibrating, which I have recorded and is on YouTube - just processing now...I will link the video in a couple minutes.

bellsystem

OKAY all,

Here is the link to the video: https://youtu.be/O-m4qRKs0UI

You can see/hear the ringer in action at these times:
7:00
8:08
9:23

Hopefully, that gives you a better insight as to what my problem is than my description has so far.

poplar1

Bell system, moving on from the "clapper rod"/"clapper wire"....did you adjust the "s thing"/"stroke limiting arm"/" armature wire"/"armature stop arm"?.....yes or  no?

Quote from: unbeldi on June 28, 2017, 10:33:45 AM
Looking at the pictures, it does appear that the stroke limiting arm has been adjusted previously to lower the volume of the gong by limit the permitted travel of the armature.   Follow AGB's advice to back it off slightly until proper volume is obtained.

Here is a properly adjusted 1939 ringer:
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

bellsystem

No, I was told that would only impact volume, which is NOT my concern.

poplar1

Quote from: bellsystem kilink=topic=18384.msg189375#msg189375 date=1498664975
No, I was told that would only impact volume, which is NOT my concern.

It will also allow greater travel range for the armature -- which may overcome the "sluggish" movement you described/showed in your video:



Quote from: Alex G. Bell on June 28, 2017, 07:07:04 AM
It looks like the armature stop arm, that gentle "S" shaped thick brass wire at the upper left, is adjusted close to the metal stop just to the right of it, which would limit armature travel and ringer volume.  Bend it slightly to the left to allow more armature travel.


"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

bellsystem

I fixed the armature - moved it away from the gongs using a screwdriver and my finger.
And like I said earlier, I also changed the bias spring to the weakest position.
The only thing I haven't done is remove the gongs (they're screwed in TIGHT) but I doubt that will fix the problem.

So:

The bells are definitely LESS sluggish now.

The ringer sounds more like the cadence it is supposed to be (although the PBX this is one provides double ring, not single ring, so it does sound a little different than the videos online).

However, the vibrating that has been causing a problem since I got it working is still causing a problem. The bells are definitely loud and clear now, and a little of the vibrating and sluggishness/messiness of the cadence seemed to go away. But most of it still remains and I'm not sure why. Does anyone know what could be causing this vibrating inside the phone? It's mostly heard, contrary to before, AFTER the ringing cadence, when you can hear the ring dying away.

poplar1

Quote from: bellsystem on June 28, 2017, 02:39:16 PM
I fixed the armature - moved it away from the gongs using a screwdriver and my finger.
And like I said earlier, I also changed the bias spring to the weakest position.
The only thing I haven't done is remove the gongs (they're screwed in TIGHT) but I doubt that will fix the problem.


Je donne ma langue au chat!

What about adjusting the gap of the stroke limiting arm? Perhaps someone can post teleplay's  and unbeldi's photos side by side so that the difference in the gaps can be compared.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: bellsystem on June 28, 2017, 02:39:16 PM
I fixed the armature - moved it away from the gongs using a screwdriver and my finger.
And like I said earlier, I also changed the bias spring to the weakest position.
The only thing I haven't done is remove the gongs (they're screwed in TIGHT) but I doubt that will fix the problem.

So:

The bells are definitely LESS sluggish now.

The ringer sounds more like the cadence it is supposed to be (although the PBX this is one provides double ring, not single ring, so it does sound a little different than the videos online).

However, the vibrating that has been causing a problem since I got it working is still causing a problem. The bells are definitely loud and clear now, and a little of the vibrating and sluggishness/messiness of the cadence seemed to go away. But most of it still remains and I'm not sure why. Does anyone know what could be causing this vibrating inside the phone? It's mostly heard, contrary to before, AFTER the ringing cadence, when you can hear the ring dying away.
Perhaps the armature bearing is worn out and the armature movement is sloppy.  I've seen that but only very rarely.  If you pull the clapper up and down slightly the armature itself should not noticeably rotate vertically on its pivot.  It should only pivot in the horizontal plane of the gongs.

Another possibility is that your ringing source is very far off frequency.  Ringers are electrically and somewhat mechanically resonant at the nominal ringing frequency: 20Hz. 

If for some reason (such as the ringing capacitor being off value or having a high internal resistance) the ringer circuit is tuned very differently from 20Hz or has a lot of internal resistive loss, it may take time for the oscillations (electrical and mechanical) to build up to the point where the armature moves with sufficient amplitude for the clapper to strike the gongs. 

I'd suggest bridging a 0.47uF 200V plastic film or paper capacitor across the existing ringing capacitor, which appears on the Yellow and SLate (gray) leads of the capacitor and is connected in series with the ringer coils, usually across the K terminal board screw and L2-Y INDuction coil terminal screw.

bellsystem

Poplar1, I did adjust the stroke limiting arm/armature,

I guess people on this forum usually have all sorts of complicated equipment at their disposal. Unfortunately, I don't. I'm not willing to buy anything or use anything I don't have to fix. It's a minor bothersome issue. I just know that it shouldn't be like that,

The armature does NOT move vertically; only horizontally. When it rang before, it didn't move much, but after moving out farther, you can see it get really excited when the gongs are ringing. It's all a blur!

My ringing source is a PBX, if that's what you mean by that - it's not connected to the Central Office.

Everything about the ringer is working fine excerpt for those strange vibrations after ringing cadence finishes.

TelePlay

#26
Quote from: unbeldi on June 28, 2017, 10:25:11 AM
Do not bend the clapper rod.

When I looked at the image provided, I may have been tricked by the angle of the camera. It looked like it was bent a bit toward the top gong (horizontally) and not vertically (up or down between the gongs).

The requested composite image is attached.

I had a sluggish ringer that had a bent clapper wire vertically so much that the clapper wire was rubbing on the rectangular cutout in the frame. By bending that part of the clapper wire down and then the clapper end up to the correct position, it was no longer sluggish.

Is the clapper wire rubbing on the frame, even a little bit when in motion?

Also, rotating the gongs can increase or decrease the ringing volume, to some extent. That YouTube video sounds terrible (302 ringing). Reminds me of a clapper that is not touching one of the gongs, just rattling in the air. That can be "fixed" by any combination of the advice given: 1) bending the armature wire; 2) bias spring placement; 3) checking the clapper wire clearance from the frame; and 4) rotating the gongs closer to or away from the clapper.

bellsystem

Hi John,

The 302 sounds much better now than it used to. I haven't taken another video and posted it because that would be a lot of work. It sounds much better now - with an actual ringing cadence rather than just a squaky one, but there are vibrations.

I'm not actually sure if it's related to the ringer at all. If I rap on the table, you can hear the vibrations inside the phone when it's all put together. Something in the phone is rattling or vibrating and I have no idea what could be causing it. All my other telephones' ringers are in top-shape condition.

TelePlay

Are the ringer mount anti-vibration rubber grommets in good condition (if you grab the ringer frame and try to twist it left and right, does it move or rattle? '39 grommets can disintegrate over time allowing the ringer mount to rattle.

You may want to put the bias spring back in the center and then high position to see if that gets rid of the rattle. The clapper may be too loose in the low setting.

Either one or both can cause a rattle as you describe.

bellsystem

John, when the bias spring was in the middle as opposed to weak, the vibrations were even worse. So that would only make it worse.

Having the clapper looser definitely helped.

Is the grommet black or silver? There's one rubbery thing on one side, but a black thing that also feels rubbery on the other...