Just listed is this "F1" phone which seems to be a nice 410 or 411 in what the seller says is the original box. Looks like a nice phone with cloth cords in need of work and a number card holder. The bottom of the phone seems to indicate a 2R-11-50 refurb date.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281850834452
The box is the interesting part. Seems the 41? was replaced by a 6/49 black 500 D. The box was used to send the 41? back to a refurb house where a 302G3F sticker was pasted over the 500 labeling with a FEB 24 195? date stamp, maybe 1951 if it was refurbed in November 1950. I could be reading the dates wrong but unlike "original" boxes being included in auctions in the past, this box also seems to have been recycled for used with the 41?. Doesn't really add to the phone other than the historical information above which I hope I got right, or close to right.
Anyone see anything else here?
Hmm, I do not think this is a 400-series set. I think it is simply a 305 with a ringer cutoff switch.
A 410 or such should have a different mounting cord.
Quote from: unbeldi on November 08, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
Hmm, I do not think this is a 400-series set. I think it is simply a 305 with a ringer cutoff switch.
A 410 or such should have a different mounting cord.
I noticed the mounting cord and thought of that also but this set would then be missing the on/off plate around the switch seen on most 305's. Maybe the on/off switch was added as part of the refurb and they just skipped the plate as too much work. The seller also did not post a picture of the plungers to if there is an exclusion switch there, we can't see it. It's a bit high priced for me to find out. I found the box more interesting in that someone has/had an early 500.
4-conductor mtg. Cord is correct for basic 410 without signaling. 305 normally has a D2- or D3- cord.
Box was originally stamped for 500D-3. That D model did not yet exist in 11-50. Box was reused by WE repair shop for a remanufactured 302G-3. No evidence that either the factory or the shop ever used the box for a 410 , 5302, or 305.
Three-conductor mounting cord.
silly guys.... all it is is a W.E. 410 in a remarked box, wired to be a 302. a 305 would have the On/Off badge riveted to it and this one does not, nor does it show signs of ever having one.... the ultimate test, buy it and find out for your self!
Quote from: Babybearjs on November 09, 2015, 02:50:40 AM
silly guys.... all it is is a W.E. 410 in a remarked box, wired to be a 302. a 305 would have the On/Off badge riveted to it and this one does not, nor does it show signs of ever having one.... the ultimate test, buy it and find out for your self!
Well, it equally could have been a modified 302, with switch added and the hole in the housing drilled out. Some 302 shells already have the switch hole molded inside.
that's true, but one will only know the truth once the case is opened.....
Seller provided additional pictures. It's neither a 410 nor a 305. Appears to be a 304 modified for ringer cut-off. I don't see this one in the BSP. Some part of the ringer has to remain connected in order for the Central Office to bill the Tip Party for message rate or toll calls.
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bc-switching-library/doc_details/3302-c32-502-i8-oct55-tel-sets-302-303-304-305-306-307-309-329-types-tl
If it is a modified 304, then the box may not be the one it came in. If it was, then the box was mislabeled.
WOW.... now that we know what it is, who's going to get it??
Seller funished another picture, showing "H3", which is the tel. set mounting code for a 304.
Because the ringer, housing, induction coil, baseplate and transmitter dates are all 1949, it's possible that this phone was modified in 1950 (refurb date on bottom), but unlikely that it was ever shipped in this box. The box is 1952 or later box, and is labeled for a 302.
In the vast majority of cases, when a telephone is found as having its original box, it isn't the original box. When a technician installed a new set, per BSP instructions they were not to simply throw the old set onto the truck, but to protect it in a box. Nothing is more obvious to do than to put the old set into the box of the new set right inside the premise where the installation took place. How that translates into us finding telephones in boxes of course may be totally unrelated, but my point is that essentially the only telephones we find in original boxes are NOS sets, or uninstalled freshly refurbished stock, often with the green stamps on the boxes.
This set does have some indications of being an uninstalled set, a nice handset cord, and the mounting cord ends are nice and straight. As rubber insulation hardens over time it shows when the ends were wound around a connecting block or bunched up inside an enclosure. They wouldn't be this straight typically.
What is more interesting to me, is whether a 304 set was chosen for this conversion because the 304 housing might always have the key position molded into the housing or not. Do all H3 housings have the feature? I don't have enough black 304 sets, or even enough observations recorded, to make a statement about it, with any kind of certainty. The only statement I can make is that at most 10% of H1 housings seems to have the key hole feature, and 100% of the colored plastic H mountings I have had, indeed had this element.
Any other information available w/r/t the key hole feature on H1, H3, etc mountings?
Not all of the 302 housings have the key position molded into them. I know some of the early clear housings did not have them. I don't know if they were added to all the later housings or just to the later molds.
JMO,
Jim
Ray K. stated he made his clear 302 housings without them to help indicate they were repro housing. I did point out to him that someof the early sets were made the same way. So if your clear 302 doesn't have the key position it is probably early or a Ray K repro.
Quote from: Jim S. on November 11, 2015, 12:29:20 PM
Not all of the 302 housings have the key position molded into them. I know some of the early clear housings did not have them. I don't know if they were added to all the later housings or just to the later molds.
JMO,
Jim
Ray K. stated he made his clear 302 housings without them to help indicate they were repro housing. I did point out to him that someof the early sets were made the same way. So if your clear 302 doesn't have the key position it is probably early or a Ray K repro.
Some clear 302 housings?
My clear 302? How many do
you have?
Who has any of them? As far as I have heard, clear 302 housings were only made for an exhibit in the late 30s (some world fair?), even before the plastic 302s were introduced in 1940/1. Since then, Ray is probably the only one to make them, not?
From an old posting:
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2092.0;attach=86400;image)
Does it have it or not?
Quote from: unbeldi on November 11, 2015, 03:34:31 PM
Quote from: Jim S. on November 11, 2015, 12:29:20 PM
Not all of the 302 housings have the key position molded into them. I know some of the early clear housings did not have them. I don't know if they were added to all the later housings or just to the later molds.
JMO,
Jim
Ray K. stated he made his clear 302 housings without them to help indicate they were repro housing. I did point out to him that someof the early sets were made the same way. So if your clear 302 doesn't have the key position it is probably early or a Ray K repro.
Some clear 302 housings?
My clear 302? How many do you have?
Who has any of them? As far as I have heard, clear 302 housings were only made for an exhibit in the late 30s (some world fair?), even before the plastic 302s were introduced in 1940/1. Since then, Ray is probably the only one to make them, not?
From an old posting:
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2092.0;attach=86400;image)
Does it have it or not?
In case anyone is confused, that article picture looks looks like both phones are repros, most likely by Ray himself. Unbeldi, I'm not exactly sure where you were going with that post referencing the picture, but if you were referencing those as originals, I'm pretty sure they aren't.
No, I just searched the forum to see if any clear one's had been posted, and came up that.
I wouldn't know how to distinguish a real one either, but I guess I would look for warping or shrinkage.
The reference photo is from page 124 of "The Telephone Connection" By John J. Dommer's aka "Dommer's book" it was published in 1983.
Gary Goff did offer reprints in the past. This used to be a popular collector book. For years that snippet was the only info on clear 302's.
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That is the historical "FACT",
Supposedly" non of the world's fair models survived a fire.
Probably the most seen (by collectors) clear 302 was the one Jim Aiata had. This was the info he had heard regarding the clear 302's and it eventually became "fact". I was guilty of spreading this "fact" as well.
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The following information is my opinion based on my research.
From my research and examination of photos and examples of clear 302 , I have found that they were many different examples of clear 302's
The "Worlds Fair " sets were used in the voice mirror exhibit and had a clear "mother-in-law" receiver.
They were used in the 1939 world's Fair in New York and also San Francisco.
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There are quite a few examples of clear 302's out there. Most of the ones I am talking about were offered up on ebay, I have examined 4 at telephone shows. (see auction contest 34, it has the "boss"
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Many of the examples seem to be "retirement sets" made in the 1940's. These typically are dated with matching dates by month/ year and some parts are matching day. There are typically more dates than you see an a line built set.
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Another common Clear 302 is a clear "Colored" set. They had a telephone office display of all of the colors and a clear set. If you are looking to complete a set of the post-war 302 colors then a "clear" Colored set is the one you need to complete the telephone display.
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Some of the others are a bit oddball.
A clear 302 style housing with a clear federal handset. (Federal did make a look alike set). http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=1879.msg25392#msg25392
A rose-clear 2 line "302" with a clear solid F-1
My clear set is a small plunger housing. I assembled it with a small plunger base and E handset. I know of a clear e handset.
A clear soft plastic 302
2 different clear 5302's
A clear/white swirl housing made by bell labs to study the flow of plastic in the mold. ( Bell Laboratories Record January 1943 page 120)
These are the ones that come to mind
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Some of the reasons why any clear sets exist :
Engineering models-
Marketing model-
educational models-
Security Models-
Novelty
Sample plastics
Just my opinion,
Jim S.
interesting variation on this thread.... so, this phone would have considered "custom"? I have several 302, and a few 304's. only one phone that I have I marked for use as a 410 shell (that way I know it can be modified without damaging it.) now, does anyone know if I got the ringer cut-off switch for a 305, and modifies a 307, would the switch fit in place of the inductor that is mounted where the switch would go in a 305?