Wiring AE-43 to Type 51 Dial

[Scotophor]

You may need to measure that suspect resistor. Third band colors for 75k ohms (orange) and 750 ohms (brown) may be similar enough that you're looking at one and thinking it's the other.

[G-Man]

The properties your induction coil may be close enough for you to rewire your set in accordance with that of the Type-43 set.  Try rewiring it without the use of the spotter springs.

[Slal]

G-man, point taken about AE diagram.  Will stick with photos or scan of diagram from now on.  Appreciate your patience with 'the new guy.' 

Attaching photo of disassembled phone with numbers for dial, term. strip, etc.

Also including detail of dial.  It might also be suspect. 

(Which would make wiring it pointless except to learn.)

Dial:
1.) Distance between pulsing springs' contact too great?  Estimate at approx .5 mm

2.) Is the cam supposed to move spring?  Cam isn't even close to pulse spring if it's supposed to move it.

3.) Dial might be slow to return.  From another topic, I timed dials on two phones that work.  Dialing a 'zero' on a WE #2 & an AE #24 took 1 second to return back.  The 51A dial took 2 seconds.  Regardless of model, they should *all* take about 1 sec-- correct?

thx

--Bruce

PS:  Scot, good call on resistor.  Been puzzling circuit & overlooked multiplier might be diff color than 'textbook.'  750 ohms on the dot. 

[Scotophor]

I think there is something screwy going on with that dial. For one thing, I believe the pulse contact springs should be closed when the dial is at rest. Those contacts are either severely misadjusted/mis-assembled, or the wrong ones for the dial.

For another thing, you're right about the speed. All normal dials (apart from special-purpose 20 pps dials, the foreign "reversed" dials, etc.) should take in the ballpark of one second to return to rest when dialing a zero. Some difference may be observable depending upon dial design, due to various amounts of "slack" area between when the last pulse is sent and when the fingerwheel actually stops spinning. You would be able to see this visually, as differences in how far the "1" hole rests from the finger stop. Two full seconds to dial a "0" is definitely too slow, unless you have a dial with ~180 degrees of travel when dialing a "1".

[dsk]

Adjusting dials to the perfect may be difficult, if we start with a rough adjustment , it will probably be OK for an old exchange.
All values are more guidelines than specifications.

1: Dial speed; from releasing the dial from 0 it should take approx 1 sec to stop. Usually  - 20% will be OK
2: It should not be a great difference in speed during the return.
3: The cam shall rest in non engaged position, and shall open and close the contact set 10 times from 0 to stop. (Return slowly, and count)
3: The opening close ratio should be 70-50% open (64% will be accepted by all systems).  This may vary from country to country, but use to be OK within this rough range.

When you have got this rough adjustment working, you may try if it is OK at your exchange. If not we have to tune it in.

You may do this without clocks or timer, just compare with another dial.

dsk

PS:
For example, the 33/66 ratio is used in
the U.S., Belgium, Denmark, U.K., France, Portugal, and others. The 40/60 ratio is used in
Austria, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, and some other countries.
DS

[G-Man]

 General Telephone Practices 900-300-500 covers the description and maintenance of AE dials. http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/70-gsp-997-300-500-i4-mar79-rotary-dials-shop-procedure
Keep in mind that you have a SATT dial and that your set was never intended for common dial operation and thusly was never equipped with one. As previously stated it can be converted to C.B. dial service but it will require some modifications. The SATT spotter springs should be ignored; instead, only the pulsing and shorting springs are utilized for your application. If you are unable to adjust the dial for satisfactory operation then it should be sent to Steve Hilsz for servicing. His rates are extremely reasonable. I have also attached a catalog page showing an updated model of your set that illustrates its intended application. It has a PTT handset switch as well.

[Slal]

Thanks.  GTE pub. very helpful.  As a beginner, disassembling those springs wasn't fun.  ; ) 

First time for everything though.  Happy to report that moving dial terminal #1 to *outside* of pulse spring seems to have done the trick.  Contacts are closed & cam moves it 10 times.  (It still takes 2 seconds to return.)

While I was at it, also modified shunt spring arrangement. 

----
Dial Modification Test 001:

Shunt spring with pin through it (#6) had been overlooked.  Put red on this one.  Numbers 4 & 5 aren't in use.

*** Let me know if this arrangement would work on phone that's been wired for a dial ***

------------
Dial Wiring:
------------

Tracing L-1 & L-2 through circuit just doesn't add up for me.  Telecomm electronics is *not* analog stereo electronics.
 
Didn't come w/dial so wasn't wired that way. 

What seems to be missing (along with it being wired differently) might be a "C" "T" & "R" board.

If interested, take a look at e-bay item: 131154871322

Save the second photo to zoom in or enlarge.   Notice what looks like an extra board that might have "C", "T" & "R" connections & maybe 100 ohm resistor that seems to be in other circuits with dial.

The AE-43 I have has two holes *exactly* where this part would go if it had been wired for a dial.

So at this point, looks like I've got two options.

If members here willing to help, can modify it for dial as learning exercise.

If modifying it is going to destroy historical value of a phone that's probably perfectly good (just needs dial blank) will keep eye out for one on the bay.

Thanks guys.  Had no idea this would be on-going topic when 1st posted.

--Bruce     

[G-Man]

Your model of set is rarer as a local battery instrument than as a common battery type-43 but it is your decision as to whether you want to modify it instead of using a dial blank to restore it to its original state. If you want to continue and modify it then either attempt to use the existing  induction coil; perhaps its properties are close enough for c.b. service, or replace it with one the is compatible. If the existing coil is retained then rewire and re-strap it according to the wiring diagram for the type-43. As far as a "C-T-R" board is concerned, those terminals are labeled "5-6-7" on you set. I have included a diagram showing the corresponding terminals.

[stub]

Bruce ,
           I agree with G-Man on rarity as a local battery instrument but it's yours to do what you want. I haven't seen this one before. Enjoy!!!  stub

[Slal]

Thanks.  While I'd like the experience, not going to ruin something that's survived this long & not meant for dial in 1st place.

So dial blank it is & replace "Koil Kord" (original frayed & failed continuity check on 2 lines.)

Dial blank for it leads to kind of dumb question as finish up here. 

How are they mounted?  Specific to each model phone or 3" one will fit all? 

Reason I ask is one on-line seller wants $20 for a dial blank while another retailer only wants $5

Am not sure I understand significant price difference unless one might come with hardware if needed and/or one might be reproduction?

Comments/opinions on what to be careful about when ordering parts welcome.

Thanks everyone for replies.  With your help, have learned quite a bit from my e-bay 'gamble.' 

--Bruce

[stub]

Bruce,
         Do you have the dial mount for this phone? Use the two stems on your dial, if they are long enough ( 3/4" exposed) and put them on a dial blank.  stub 

[Slal]

Looks like I'm in business.  Happy me.  W/Battery pack, phone works like a charm.  Dial plate & cords on order. 

Evaluating Project Costs:

----
Phone = $31.50 + $10.00 S&H

Dial blank, cloth coved line & handset cords = $25 

Total: $66.50
----
Realize am asking experienced collectors to speculate but...

$66.50 project cost is.

a.) worth the money

b.) lost money

c.) broke even

Comments/opinions about project cost greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your help & probably being patient with 'the new guy.'  Am sure some probably laughed at me trying to trace the circuit.  "How long before he figures out you can't put a square peg in a round hole?"  ; )

--Bruce

[stub]

Bruce,
          That's great !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think it's worth the money. Time to get another and start again!!!!!   stub

[Slal]

Parts came in, so figured I'd close things up with final photo in case googled for posterity. 

Nice thing about battery is can jiggle its wire to produce noise as polite excuse so can get back to what I was doing.

"Bad connection.  Can you hear that noise?  Call later.  Cutting out.  Can you hear anything? <break>"  ; )

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

--Bruce