News:

"The phone is a remarkably complex, simple device,
and very rarely ever needs repairs, once you fix them." - Dan/Panther

Main Menu

Dialing out is hit or miss with my WE '54 500

Started by metdial, January 10, 2009, 02:50:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

metdial


Well,  I received yet another phone today in the mail.  Another WE 500 model, dated 1954.  The network and ringer date to '54,  while the 7D dial is from '59 and the cords and the case are from 1958.  The receiver capsule is dated 1952 and the receiver cap is of the 6 hole bakelite variety.  I could not unscrew the transmitter cap, so I assume it is a "no center hole" thermoplastic piece.

Ok, here's the problem.   The phone has a dial tone when plugged in and receives and rings properly when a call comes in.  When I try to dial out however, it works probably less than half of the time.  I dialed a local number and the first time I got a busy signal (my veterinarian's office off hours, so I expected to get the answering machine).  The second time I dialed it I got the answering machine of a private residence.  The third time I dialed it the call finally went through and I got my vet's answering machine.  I then tried to make a long distance call to my mother in law; there was a long dead pause and then eventually what sounded like fax machine or dial-up computer chirping followed by an automated voice saying "your call cannot be completed as dialed...".  I tried the number again and was able to get through.  I then tried some 1-800 numbers and encountered more electronic fax machine talk followed by the automated voice again saying "hang up and try again".  Occasionally I would get through (like with the automated weather conditions hotline), however the computer would immediately ask me, "I'm sorry, I did not understand your request" even though I did not touch the dial or say a word.

I checked the wiring schematics for the 500 c/d series and everything looks to be connected correctly. 

The dial is bit sluggish upon return (takes a little over a second to return when you dial zero).
Could it be something as simple as needing to have the dial mechanism cleaned and lubricated?  Or did I finally get a lemon that will cost more to get fixed than the phone is worth?

Thanks for the help and input.

Tom

Dennis Markham

Tom,

Can you post some photos?  If I could see the back side of the dial, with the plastic dust cover removed it would help.  I'd like to get a look at the dial contact points.  Also, just for fun show us the dial wiring.  It is not an expensive fix.  It's probably a matter of a bent contact, or the small plastic cam that pushes the contacts together when at rest.  If it were dialing REALLY slow or REALLY fast it may dial the wrong number.  Let's see what you have and go from there.

Do your other rotary phones work on your line?

Dennis

TIPandRING

Sounds like you dial is in bad need of cleaning and lubrication. The phone system is pretty forgiving...at least in my area, but it wants to see 10 pulses per second speed--you can see the little contacts open and close rapidly with the phone apart looking at the underside of the dial. If your dial contacts open and close too slow you're confusing the central office electronics (the switching equipment at the other end of the "line" as to what you are trying to do (what number you're calling) and then you get mis-dials.

working less than 1/2 the time still means it works so I doubt you have a phone network problem.  When you dial zero, there should be a hair over 1 second reurn time.

Dan/Panther

I agree with Tipand Ring, I also follow the 1001 rule when testing a dial. You can be over/under by a little but the rule is about 1 second for a complete cycle of the dial.
I was told each click is 1/10 second.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

metdial

Quote from: Dennis Markham on January 10, 2009, 03:29:14 PM
Tom,

Can you post some photos?  If I could see the back side of the dial, with the plastic dust cover removed it would help.  I'd like to get a look at the dial contact points.  Also, just for fun show us the dial wiring.  It is not an expensive fix.  It's probably a matter of a bent contact, or the small plastic cam that pushes the contacts together when at rest.  If it were dialing REALLY slow or REALLY fast it may dial the wrong number.  Let's see what you have and go from there.

Do your other rotary phones work on your line?

Dennis


Thanks to everyone for the initial sight-unseen diagnosis.  I'm glad to hear that its probably nothing catastrophic, and that it shouldn't be an expensive fix.

My other two phones do work on our line.  The "61 works perfectly every time without a hitch.  The '52 may have had a hiccup or two, but  seems to work reliably most of the time (dial also needs cleaning & lubrication on the '52).  The '61, as I mentioned before, works fine, but is so much noisier & grittier than the dials on the other 2 phones.  The 7D on the '54 (which is dated '59) is much smoother than the 7D on the '61.   I'll have to take a look under the dust cover of the '61 as well to see what's going on.

Here are a couple photos of the dial and of the wiring.  If I didn't catch quite the right angle for you to see what the problem is, let me know, and I will post more pictures later.

Dennis Markham

I don't disagree with the other guys that a sticky dial is the problem with your dial.  But I like to check those other issues as well.  Your photos show that the dial is wired properly and the plastic dial cam is positioned as it should be to put pressure against the contacts.

The phone also shows the abundance of lubrication on at least one of the axles.  If you look at this posting

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=285.0

there may be some useful information there.  I would recommend against dismantling the dial.  Your dial has the parts "pressed" together rather than being held together with screws.  You can see the difference in the photos. 

I always recommend an electrical contact cleaner to remove old gum and oil but even rubbing alcohol will work.  Wipe off excess oil, and use the alcohol on a Q-tip to remove gunk from the dial gears themselves.  You can even reach into the gears with a tooth pick to remove some junk.  I think my posting that I reference above should answer your questions and improve the working condition of your dial.

benhutcherson

Both the wiring and the dial contacts look correct to me.

I would guess that the issue is the dial returning too slowly.

Unfortunately, that dial is not really conducive to a proper cleaning(where the dial is disassembled and then oiled), since the gear train is press fit together. What I would suggest doing is removing the gear train and spraying the heck out of it with CRC QD electronics cleaner.

Once it's dried, you can carefully oil it with a small quantity of good oil, and then the dial should run correctly.

metdial



Boy, I'll tell ya, I was really bummed out earlier today when I discovered that there was an issue with this phone.  Now, thanks to the knowledge and expertise of the members of this forum,  I'm armed with the information I need to hopefully remedy the problem.  To be honest, I was much too intimidated to tackle a project like this before today.  Now I feel like I can conquer the phone refurbishing world!!!!!!   

Ok,  I've come back down to earth and will proceed with great care & caution (and I admit, a hint of apprehension).  But proceed I shall.

Thanks again everyone, and I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

metdial



Dennis,

I forgot to ask you what kind/brand of oil you use to lubricate your dials?

I have compiled a list of products that you use and recommend, but I don't recall seeing a post where you mentioned specifically what kind of lubricating oil you use.

Thanks again for your help and expertise.

Tom

benhutcherson

I'm not Dennis, but I'll offer my input.

I use Labelle brand oil on dials. Labelle makes plastic-safe synthetic lubricants, primarily targeted at the model train and other small motorized toy market.

They come in a small bottle with a long needle tip that's really handy for getting a small amount into tight spaces. If you have a hobby shop of some sort near you, they probably stock Labelle products-you'll be looking at $5-7 for a small bottle that will last you for years.

Either Labelle #111 or #108 will work fine. If you wish to oil the gear faces(highly recommended for quiet operation), use #102, but DON'T use this for oil the pivots.

McHeath

Never fear metdial, these guys can fix any phone problem sight unseen!  The amount of phone know-how here is amazing.

Since I can't help you with this problem I will do what I do best and oooo and ahhh over the phone. 

metdial


Thanks a lot Ben for the suggestion.  It sounds like the Labelle brand oil would be ideal for this application.  I live in the rural Northeast, so I would have to travel a bit to get to a hobby shop that might carry this product.  I 'll have to do a search online to see if I can find a more convenient source.

I appreciate all of the help and input I've received from everyone in the forum.
Because of the wealth of information here and the cyber-quick access to it, I've learned quite a bit in a short period of time.  Refurbishing & repairing old phones is a hobby that has always intrigued me.  In the past, I've had access to old rotary phones that no one wanted, and I've kicked myself many times for not keeping them.  But at that time, I just didn't have the access to the resources & knowledge that are so readily availlable here.  In short, you have handed me the key that has unlocked the door to this enjoyable and rewarding hobby.

I have crossed the threshold and I am HOME. :D

Dennis Markham

I use a fine all-purpose Turbine lubricating oil but it is the first oil that I picked up and tried.  The important thing to remember is to get an oil that has NO DETERGENTS.  I picked up this bottle at Home Depot.  It's made by Norvey, Inc.  It's like a sewing machine oil.

McHeath

QuoteI appreciate all of the help and input I've received from everyone in the forum.
Because of the wealth of information here and the cyber-quick access to it, I've learned quite a bit in a short period of time.  Refurbishing & repairing old phones is a hobby that has always intrigued me.  In the past, I've had access to old rotary phones that no one wanted, and I've kicked myself many times for not keeping them.  But at that time, I just didn't have the access to the resources & knowledge that are so readily availlable here.  In short, you have handed me the key that has unlocked the door to this enjoyable and rewarding hobby.

I have crossed the threshold and I am HOME.

We do try.  And luckily there are some here with actual knowledge!   ;D