Red Model 500 on eBay - Is It A Complete 1957 Set?

[Dennis Markham]

Here is a good example of a phone that appears to be from 1957 but it has seen the refurbish shop.  I thought for a moment that this one would be the real deal.  Since there are some decent photos there are some clues that I'll point out.

http://tinyurl.com/7u58e8

The first clue that this is a refurbished phone and NOT a complete soft plastic 1957 model 500 is the finger wheel.  Note that it is the hard center finger wheel.  There are exceptions but this is clue #1.

Clue #2 is the opening for the finger stop.  It's difficult to tell from the first photo showing the front if there is a wide opening as there would be on a 7C or 7D dial from 1957 or if there is a shadow there.  We need another view.

The six hole ear cap and mouth piece cap with the missing center hole could mean it's a soft plastic handset.  But even looking at the enlarged version it look like there's a logo stamped on the handle of the handset.  I have seen old 302 handsets that had the logo filed away (because people weren't supposed to own the phones and this was the phone company's mark) but never before on a G1 handset.  This could be the photo, but it sure looks smooth.

Next Photo, the bottom.  Feet are suede, correct for 1957.  The bottom is in rough shape--a lot of corrosion.  The model and date are pretty worn.  Another view of the 6 hole cap.

Side view - coverless:  This tells the story about the dial.  Note that the four conductors from the dial, one blue, one green and two white are not the older cloth covered wires (of 1957) but the thinner rubber insulated wires.  This confirms that this is the later #8 or later dial.  The seller says the phone doesn't ring but that's because the black ringer wire is on the G terminal and not on L1 where it needs to be to ring.

After knowing what we know about the changed dial going back to the other photos now makes it clear that the finger stop slit is narrow for the later dial mechanism and not a double opening for the finger stop and support of the 7 series dial.

So the phone was at least partially refurbished.  The question remaining is what is the date of the cover?  I have sent a message to the seller asking that question.

In conclusion $25 is a lot for a starting bid for this phone in this condition.  Someone has already made their bid---perhaps in haste.  If one were looking for a soft plastic red 500 from 1957 this is not the one.

[Dennis Markham]

The seller reports that the case IS dated 2-15-57 and has added a photo showing that date.   He also connected the ringer and reports it works.  So the only added part, other than perhaps the cords, is the dial bezel and dial.

[Dan]

The finger stop opening as you guys refer to has me a little bit confused. Do you mean from the spot where it comes off the dial cover to the top of the stop--that is the height of the stop--this is thicker on 7C or &D dials? I always use the soft dial center to help me. When did the hard center dials start. ?

I'd say this is a true 1957, soft plastic, with a newer dial and cord (too thin). I am curious it doesn't appear to have a G-3 handset.

Please clear up this finger stop issue I cannot understand. Pictures would be appreciated , if possible. Thanks!

[Sargeguy]

Is it just me or do the prongs on that plug look awful shiny??? 

[Dennis Markham]

You're right.  They do look awfully new.

[benhutcherson]

The #7 dials have a big post where the finger stop attaches cast into the aluminum plate. This will stick up through the dial bezel, and thus requires a wide opening for the finger stop.

On a #9 dial, the only thing that sticks through the bezel is the finger stop itself, thus the hole in the bezel can be considerably thinner.

[McHeath]

Dang you're good Dennis!  I read your initial comments and then went and looked over the phone without reading your clues, I missed them all. 

Now since we have a mostly 1957 red phone with a soft plastic shell at the least, what is the value?

I suppose this phone would clean up pretty well.

Great pics of the dial Ben.

[Dan/Panther]

Upon looking at an enlarged photo of the handset, it appears that a significant amount of plastic has bee filed away, it actually appears as  an indent into the handset.
Yes Dennis has given many clues to watch out for while looking, and I made it a high priority to remember as many as I can to avoid pitfalls.

D/P

[Dan/Panther]

One more thing on the dial, didn't they use heavy clothe covered wires on the earlier dials, this one shows the very thin blue and gray wires.
The finger stop appears in one of the photos to have a large base through the bodey, but not clear enough to say for sure.
D/P

[Dennis Markham]

Dan, thanks for those photos.  I was going to do that and you beat me to the punch---good deal.  I'm not sure what you mean about the indent on the handset.  Do you mean where the logo should appear.  I saw another on eBay today that appeared to have this logo missing.  I'm wondering if it's just the photo??  I think I mentioned the wires of the dial in my original posting.  That is always a good clue.

Believe me I wish I had had someone pointing out these things to me when I started buying phones.  I have a basement full of telephones that I thought were something they weren't.  I learned the hard way by buying them (and paying shipping) only to get something that wasn't what I thought.  Even now I get burned now and then when I let my guard down. 

Still, this is not a bad phone.  I'm sure I have the needed replacement parts in order to make it complete but that bottom does concern me.  Short of sanding and painting the bottom (which I have never done) there isn't a lot that can be done with that rust and pitting.

Someone asked what I thought the value of this phone is and I'm the wrong guy to ask.  I haven't come close yet on any of of the auction contests!  I think the starting bid is high but there are two types of people that want a red phone.  There is Mary Sue Smith (fictitious) that wants a red phone to look pretty in her home and will never buy another one---and the phone collector looking for a soft plastic phone. 

Here is an example of Mary Sue Smith buying a phone from 1970 that looks pretty:  http://tinyurl.com/72e8fq ( dead link 05-13-21 )

Expert model 500 phone seller Finlover makes a great presentation and gets top dollar for his phones.  For me, I'd rather have the soft plastic set for $25 and put the parts on that it needs to make it a nice collectible.  Because I am a sucker for red soft plastic models and I have the parts needed to make it complete I would pay $50 for this phone if I didn't have to pay shipping too.  Once a correct dial, with the proper color code, including the correct dial bezel AND a soft center finger wheel are in place the phone would be in the $75-$100 range...plus or minus.  As another Dennis (Miller) would say, "...that's just my opinion, I could be wrong..."

[Dan]

Thanks ben, so the black phone has the 7C dial, while the green has the 9C? Thanks again!

[benhutcherson]

Dan,
The black phone pictured has a 7A dial, although 7C and 7D dials will also look like this.

Yes, the green phone is a 9C.

[Dan]

so, to put it in newbie terms, the "slit " coming out of the number wheel is a newer dial, while a " thicker stalk"is an older one 7A for black, and 7C for colored phones.

[Dennis Markham]

Dan, the color of the phone has no bearing on the model of the dial.  Early Western Electric model 500's and 554's used 7A dials.  As they progressed the numbers changed to 7C and 7D.  As far as I know there were no 7B dials.  Then again, dials progressed to #8's and #9's.  However, there was a #6 series that was manufactured at the same time as the #7 dials.  Those were commonly found on 354 wall phones and in 302's. 

[Dan]

Thanks Dennis.