Hello all,
Recently became a member to the forum I am looking for some guidance on resurecting my paytelephone. Im a novice to the pay phone world but am willing to learn. Now on to the phone from my research I think what I have is a WE 1D2. I aquired it about 20 years ago from a site that was going to be demoed next to my house. Seeings how I had no prior knowledge about pay phones and was just grabbing because it was "cool" it has basically been sitting in storage all this time. I do not have any keys to it except a tkey that one of my friends gave me in 1994 when I got it since he had payphone throughout the city at the time. Fastfoward 20 years I was going through some stuff that has been in storage at my parents house and came across this gem. My daughter saw it and was instantly facinated with it having never seen anything like it LOL. So Im here at the forums trying to bring my phone to life and have found some barriers that are holding up the process.
1. Since I have no keys I cant get to the inners to see what I have. That is my first problem and question what is the best method to getting the upper opened? I have emailed haralsonlock@aol but have not heard back so moving foward should I begin to start thinking about drilling it out?
2 . As for the lower I think it is a model 30 c crytolock which from what I read is a (expletive deleted) to open. how should I approach opening the lower? drilling or cutting the front of coin box ( it has alot change in it if I flip it around a couple times coins come out of the shoot mostly from the sixties ).
3. Since it is a coin first model then tone will it work if I connect the wires exposed at the rear(see pic)?
4. Coin drop seems to be blocked from putting in coins (I see metal blocking it from the inside) is this normal for a disconnected phone?
5. Will this work on a cable phone ;line or will it need a POTS line to work?
Sorry for the barrage of questions but I had not found resolve to these issues with searching hence I am here any help would be greatly appreciated by me and most of all my daughter LOL.
Regards Steve
Removing the lock requires a lot of patience and time-consuming work. The lock is made up of many brass 'slides' inside that control the main latch that opens the upper housing. The outside of the lock has to be drilled first, so you can access the inside of the slides. Each of these slides have to be pulled forward and then cut out from inside the lock using a tweezers. My dad and I must have spent 4 and a half hours trying to remove these slides!
It will probably work just by splicing into the red and green conductor of the wire stub. The phone company probably just abandoned a working phone, though usually they would have sent someone out to remove the coin box. Whether or not it will dial out depends on the type cable modem you have. You might want to try another rotary phone such as a WE 500 on your modem just to see what happens.
I'm trying to recall whether the coin slot is blocked when the phone is disconnected. This may be the case, in order to keep someone from inserting coins, which in some models would become stuck without the central office equipment (coin trunk) to send out the 130 Volts DC to operate the relay.
Thank you for that responded poplar1 I gave the red to red and green to green a shot but nothing all I could here was a little static from the wires rubbing. Since it a 4 wire is there another configuration that I can try?
Christian, yeah I have read about how much of a PITA these locks can be to open I also read that some just cut the front coin box plate then replace with another.
The only locks I have drilled out are the ABLOY locks on my Norwegian payphone.
A friend and locksmith has told me to drill about like what you may see here
http://tinyurl.com/7u2c43m (http://tinyurl.com/7u2c43m)
but this one are not bad either.
Googeling drill lock may be a hint :)
dsk
Hey dsk that was a very informative video and may come in handy if my current career doesnt work out lol all joking aside I have done my due dilgence in searching and have come up empty in respects to cracking a 30c lower lock as for the upper lock I may just give it a go with the drill considering I dont have the key. I fiqured that i would try this forum because it seemed to be the most informative about these type of issues and since others my have come across this situation and have come up with a definitive method of handling this. Thank you for your insight.
If you check the paystation topic here you will find some educational and informative posts about drilling and opening payphones. He also has info for Judy Harralson who is a locksmith and very helpful.
I meant to say "posts by DavePEI about drilling". Also the locksmith is Jody not Judy.
Hello Harrysmith, its funny you say that I was just starting to sift through some of the topics I fiqured I stay in the WE forum since well its a WE lol but I guess I have to explore the entire site. I did reach out to Judy but no reponse :-[
Hey popular1 by a stroke of luck my friend heard me talking about this an he laughed and walked into a back room and pulled out you guessed it a ITT rotary 500 series phone LOL i connected it and it worked fine but unfortunatley when I hooked up my red and green on my 1D2 no love.
Good to know that rotary phones are recognized by your cable modem.
Originally, red and green were connected to the line, and yellow was originally connected to ground. I don't know whether switching polarity of the red and green would make any difference. Perhaps Dave or Eric will chime in, or anyone else who has a single slot pay phone working, especially if it's on a cable modem.
From what I've read on the forum, the bottom lock (30C) is much harder to defeat than the top lock (29-type). In any case, it's not necessary to unlock the vault unless you think the spare change inside is worth the effort. You don't need to open the vault lock to get to the wiring.
Thats not a D type its either an A or most likley a C type
A=coin first only
C=coin first or dial tone first
D=dial tone first only
Hello kimball,
I summized that it was a 1D2 from another poster who had same phone. Once I get inside I will have my answer. ;)
Harrysmith, I knew it was jody took it from a post on here verbatim was being polite. I emailed him a couple days ago hoping to here from him soon or Im going to have to do this the "Hard"way.
Ok, it looks to me like a 1C1 set up for coin first. The instruction cards look like it, and that's consistent with you not being able to get dial tone. Put a dime in it, see if that makes a difference. It probably won't, but you never know.
There shouldn't be anything blocking the coin slot unless the validator is jammed or stuffed full of coins or some other contaminant.
Locks... the upper lock can be removed fairly easily. They're harder than rock, so drilling isn't very much fun. I usually carefully cut the outer face off with a small cut-off wheel in a dremel tool. Here is a link to a thread showing a phone I cut open that way along with photos of the resulting lock pieces.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9382.msg100514#msg100514
The lower lock can't be removed that way, sadly. There isn't enough of the lock face visible. Pretty much the only way to get into the vault without destroying the actual phone is to use a bigger cutoff wheel and cut the vault door off. If you decide you want to take the time to do that, let me know, I can provide you with some more information and measurements on where to cut.
---Eric
Hello Esalter,
Thank you for instruction and your confirmation on what type of phone I have I guess I will give your method a try on the upper and please foward any information on removing lower as I have had a couple people look at lock and say they can not get it open. One of my friends is sure he can pick it lol I will let him try and bet 50 bucks so at least I have money for bits for drilling lol. question so cutting off the face of the lock is best but did you mess with the esthetic of exterior? Just trying to picture a dremel tool getting in to that area an wondering how much damage occurs if I slip.
See: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12586.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12586.0)
The 30C lock is an entirely different animal from what is used on older payphones. The way it is built, one is better to not drill it See the noted on that page regarding the 30C.
One note: If you are trying to contact Jody, you are far better off to contact him using his cell phone number, rather than trying by email. He is a very busy man and you may get no reply to emails. Also, there was a gentleman who assisted Paul V. before he passed away - Paul trained him on what keys went with various ISPS and he might be able to help you get an actual key or it. His name is Eugene Doom, and you can contact him at springdoom@aol.com.
So the way I see it, your best bets are as follows in this order....
1) Contact Eugene Doom and see if he can provide a key.
2) Contact Jody and see if he can do the same.
3) Try vibrating the screws from the lock using a hammer drill and reversed drill bit. I have had no luck trying this process, but others report some luck.
4) Barring that, you will have to break into the lock. Use the technique described on the linked page, using the screwdriver, and removing the leaves.
5) If that fails, an option is to very carefully remove the tongue of the lock using an angle grinder. You need to cut it just outside the lock so it will fall clear of the T lock assembly.Red line in 30c photo shows cut line. Bear in mind in that case you will end up leaving a cut in the case. If, as in my NE phone there is an additional cover that fits over the lock, no problem. If not, you will have to fill that cut afterwards with weld, metallic duct tape, or a combination of JB Weld and tape and re-paint it.
Sadly, with a 30C, there doesn't seem to be an easy way. These are very secure locks. If anyone finds one, please pass it along to all of us.
Dave
Quote from: Steve911 on October 16, 2014, 11:03:00 PM
Harrysmith, I knew it was jody took it from a post on here verbatim was being polite. I emailed him a couple days ago hoping to here from him soon or Im going to have to do this the "Hard"way.
Last I talked to to him I mentioned a slow email response. He told me it was better to call him.
Thanks guys,
I haven't committed to a definitive method of getting the upper open yet another friend of mine said he has a lock breaker it is an apparatus that you insert into the lock and expand it in effect crushing the inners and making the lock operable with a screwdriver once completed. I have my reservation with this method as I have never heard of anything like this but he swears by it he is about 73 years old and said it has never failed him getting a lock open. Thanks for the contact info and clarity on utilizing the phone over email for Jody and Mr doom email
The way the locks operate, I highly doubt his lock crusher method will work. The key causes those plates to rotate, each of them a different amount. There are slots or gateways in the plates that allow a piece on the tongue to slide into them, thus opening the lock. Unless the plates are lined up so those gateways are in line with the tongue piece or the plates are removed alltogether, it will not open.
As for Dave's method of opening his panel phone, I highly recommend against that. No offense to you at all Dave, but the method I described works very well and doesn't leave any damage to the phone whatsoever. Once you are able to get the face of the lock off, I don't see any circumstances where you wouldn't be able to get the plates out(or chewed up enough) to get the lock open. I really took my time on it to make sure I didn't slip and damage the paint, it still only took less than an hour. You can see in the photos on the link I provided earlier there aren't any marks around the lock hole on the upper housing. Even the green paint on the inner edge of the hole is completely intact. It's definitely the way to go if you can't find a key to fit it. I did put a couple layers of masking tape on the outside of the lock just to be on the safe side. It was very easy to control the cutoff wheel to keep from slipping though. After the green 1A1 I've gotten into 3 or 4 1D2s with jammed up 29A locks the same way, each took around 20 minutes now that I knew what I was doing. I used the same method on an Abloy lock also, that had to be cut deeper to get the face off, but once I was through, the guys just fell out and the lock opened, so it was actually easier.
There absolutely isn't a way to defeat a 30C in a singleslot without cutting up either the phone or the vault door. Vault doors are a lot easier to replace than lower housings are. I've heard of telco guys wedging the vault door over to the left and slipping a cutoff wheel between the door and door opening, cutting the lock tongue that way, but even that causes damage to the lower housing inside the phone. It will destroy the mechanism inside the vault door as well.
---Eric
Quote from: ESalter on October 17, 2014, 05:23:38 PM
As for Dave's method of opening his panel phone, I highly recommend against that. No offense to you at all Dave, but the method I described works very well and doesn't leave any damage to the phone whatsoever. Once you are able to get the face of the lock off, I don't see any circumstances where you wouldn't be able to get the plates out(or chewed up enough) to get the lock open.
Ahh, but therein lies the difference between a 30C and a NE22QC (lower) and NE22QD (upper) lock. Similar interior construction, but the vanes are made of super hardened spring brass in the NE - I spent two and a half days trying to chew some of that out of the lock to no avail.... Couldn't even nick it!
I later tried the same way with a 30C, and no problem chewing out the internal vanes in it. So it is a difference in the quality of brass alloy in the NE lock.
And because of the design of the NE panel phone with its external SS cover, one would never know I did it the way I did. You cannot tell how I got the locks off without removing the external SS covers.
Dave
What were you trying to chew them up with? Hard brass is still brass, so a drill or small end-mill cutter should have been able to cut them. Even if they were hardened steel they should be able to be cut up and removed. I promise I didn't mean any offense by what I typed earlier. I just don't want to see someone cut a slot in the side of a phone if there's a way around it. :)
Another point of interest... the cutaway image of the 30C lock. In the lower left of that photo is a stepped silver colored block that's sprung up against the brass and copper plates. The vault locks have that piece, the upper locks(at least 29A's) don't.
---Eric
Ok Gentlemen I went ahead and drilled out the upper with success it was a 29a and put up a little fight but she is out. The lower will be for another day a friend saw what i doing and said bring it by his place and he will use the plasma cutter on the vault door :o I will have to think about that LOL. As for the upper it is in fact a 1c and vintage 1976 I was able to switch to dtf but I still cant dial out. What is my next step to get it to dial out? BTW a couple coins were jammed in the totalizer vintage 1940 nickels x 2 3 60's dimes and 1 60's quarters. I have attached pic of inner
Where have you connected ring and tip (red and green from your line.)
Quote from: Steve911 on October 17, 2014, 08:19:45 PM
Ok Gentlemen I went ahead and drilled out the upper with success it was a 29a and put up a little fight but she is out. The lower will be for another day a friend saw what i doing and said bring it by his place and he will use the plasma cutter on the vault door :o I will have to think about that LOL. As for the upper it is in fact a 1c and vintage 1976 I was able to switch to dtf but I still cant dial out. What is my next step to get it to dial out? BTW a couple coins were jammed in the totalizer vintage 1940 nickels x 2 3 60's dimes and 1 60's quarters. I have attached pic of inner
Hey Dave,
It has 4 wires yellow, black red green I just hooked up red to red and green to green dial tone there when I rotary dial it does not seem to recognize it and dial tone remains I am able dial in and talk through it from my cell
Quote from: Steve911 on October 17, 2014, 08:40:44 PM
Hey Dave,
It has 4 wires yellow, black red green I just hooked up red to red and green to green dial tone there when I rotary dial it does not seem to recognize it and dial tone remains I am able dial in and talk through it from my cell
To me that sounds as though you have it on a VOIP line or a cable modem? These are notorious for accepting some dials and not others. Have you get a POTS line you could try connecting it to and dialing?
Dave
That's strange I used a 500 series rotary phone on this line and it worked fine yesterday. No POTs line around here unfortunately
If you call the pay phone from a cell phone, are you able to answer and then transmit and receive? If so, after answering the pay phone, operate the dial while listening on the cell phone. Do you hear a series of pops, for example 7 pops if you dial a 7 on the pay phone?
Also, does this model have a dial shorting coin relay? If so, you'd have to deposit 10 cents one time to release the shorting contacts, at least in CF mode.
Quote from: ESalter on October 17, 2014, 07:39:45 PM
What were you trying to chew them up with? Hard brass is still brass, so a drill or small end-mill cutter should have been able to cut them. Even if they were hardened steel they should be able to be cut up and removed. I promise I didn't mean any offense by what I typed earlier. I just don't want to see someone cut a slot in the side of a phone if there's a way around it. :)
Another point of interest... the cutaway image of the 30C lock. In the lower left of that photo is a stepped silver colored block that's sprung up against the brass and copper plates. The vault locks have that piece, the upper locks(at least 29A's) don't.
---Eric
I don't know if you read the whole topic - I tried many other possibilities before doing it the way I did. I eliminated all other possibilities before taking the drastic approach. However, I couldn't be more pleased in the way it turned out.
To try to cut away the levers I tried Dental Burrs in my Dremel (diamond) and small molybdenum drill bits. Just glanced off the metal. On the 30C, all I needed was a pair of side cutters - much softer metal.
And as far as looks are concerned, I dare you to find any sign of my getting in the way I did. If it were going to leave any sign, I wouldn't have done it that way.
When I feel a bit better, I will take close-ups around the locks so you can see it is true. If it were a US made phone I couldn't have done it that way because it wouldn't have had the removable Stainless steel cover. There is no cut in the SS cover at all, only in the mild steel cover below it, and then only a straight line. Put th outside cover back on and no sign at all of how the locks were removed.
Below is a shot from NE's T-9 catalogue showing the phone and its panel system. The phone itself is in a painted mild steel case, and panels of SS slide into the case. By removing the panel over the lock, the slit for the lock can be cut, and when done, the panel slid back in leaving an unblemished phone.
Alas, one doesn't have this when working on a US phone.
Dave
Hey popular1,
negative on hearing any thing from the cell side when I use the rotary I am about to call the house have my daughter pick and have full conversation but unable to dial out. when I put a coin sometimes it gets stuck others i hear the totalizer recognizing it but still no dialing ability I flipped the switch to DTF today should I switch to cf then try?
So I tried flipping it to CF place a dime in the shoot hear the totalizer acknowledge it and bam it dials out lol the best part is as long as i don't manually remove the coin from hitting the return inside the line is active is this normal?
Steve, since the relay won't ever be activated to collect or refund the 10 cent deposit, that first dime should be the only one you need.
I'm not sure what other wiring changes may be necessary when moving the switch from CF to DTF. So if it works in CF mode, I'd leave it there.
There ARE wiring changes that need to be made when switching from CF to DTF mode. They're in the BSPs for C type phones. There are a couple wires that need to be changed on the dial assembly and almost all of them on the lower terminal block on the chassis board, IIRC.
---Eric
Popular1, Im with you if it isn't broke don't fix it lol 1 dime it is.
Esalter, sounds like a lot of work LOL I think I will stick with the dime trick.
Gentlemen and all that participated in helping me get the phone working Thank You. I will post pictures once I have the lower open.
Hi again.
My only experience with a single slot payphone are the 120B http://tinyurl.com/ohvml4b (http://tinyurl.com/ohvml4b)
Here you need to insert one coin to activate dialing. After enough calls the mechanism will be full, and ....
If it is the same here, you may need to com in to the phone.
Incoming calls should work, but it may not have a ringer???
Maybe this will do: http://tinyurl.com/n3omwvj (http://tinyurl.com/n3omwvj)
dsk
It really isn't that much work to convert them. The last one I did took about 5-10 minutes. The BSPs have a chart that shows the terminal locations with wire colors for both CF and DTF operation, very easy to follow. I don't have time right now, but when I get home tonight I'll locate that chart for you, so if nothing else you'll have it if you ever decide in the future you'd like to convert it to DTF.
---Eric
With a 3-slot prepay phone such as WE 233G, you need only one dime one time, in order to fall into the hopper and operate the trigger contacts. So the hopper doesn't need to fill up.
Is it different with a single slot phone? In other words, do you need to deposit 10 cents every time you want to call out? If not, what is the advantage of converting to DTF (Dial Tone First)?
Single slot WE coin phones are equipped with ringers inside.
Esalter, Thank You cant hurt to have a look at the diagram.
poplar 1, I have been using the phone for the last 3 days ( at least 20-30 calls lol my daughter loves it) with out having to introduce a new dime so we shall see.
The next might be to make a coin controller, if you like DIY projects.
My prototype: http://tinyurl.com/kpq42ev
dsk
Not really, related to phones per-se, but if the quarters you got out are 1964 or earlier, they are 90% silver, and worth a lot more than 25c in their own right.
Thank you Dsk.
mentalstampede, yup and so are the dimes. I haven't cracked it yet really but the change that has come out does have me intrigued.
Just FYI, here are photos of some relevant pages out of the BSPs for those phones.
---Eric
Thank You Esalter I will review if the need/desire to convert her over. I just mounted it today looks great just hanging on the wall in my billiards area (man cave) coincidentally enough the pool table I have is also coin op lol my friend cracked up when we realized that.
Steve
Does anyone have a spare vault door for this unit ? or point me in the direction where I can find one. I may go ahead and cut the vault door off with the plasma cutter after all.
Quote from: Steve911 on October 30, 2014, 09:23:30 PM
Does anyone have a spare vault door for this unit ? or point me in the direction where I can find one. I may go ahead and cut the vault door off with the plasma cutter after all.
Try payphone.com. They have doors and locks for them for very cheap! Remember to get the "Western Style" door, or the lock won't work properly.
Original black vault doors aren't very common. I have quite a few NOS Western Electric chrome vault doors(still have the protective vinyl on the front) from the early-mid 70s. I get $25 plus shipping for them.
---Eric
Looks like the upper lock is a 29a and the lower is a 30c. I've seen 30c locks on ebay. There is a listing for two new later manufacture 29a locks on ebay. I say buy the locks with keys, unlock your phone, then resell the locks and keys.