WE Ivory 410

[Doug Rose]

Anyone ever seen one of these before? Looks like a WE upgrade of a 410. ....Doug

[WEBellSystemChristian]

To me, it looks like a refurb shop did it, unless the prewar sets were different than postwar.

The plungers are either solid Ivory plastic or painted, the former being a detail of prewar sets. I guess a solid plastic color-matching switch would make sense too, unless it's painted.

The rest looks like an original prewar Ivory 302, with the seamless handset and dial card mask. I would bet the line switch and plungers are original as well.

[paul-f]

To me, it looks like a refurb shop did it, unless the prewar sets were different than postwar.

The plungers are either solid Ivory plastic or painted, the former being a detail of prewar sets. I guess a solid plastic color-matching switch would make sense too, unless it's painted.

The rest looks like an original prewar Ivory 302, with the seamless handset and dial card mask. I would bet the line switch and plungers are original as well.

Tactfully done, Christian.

I'd also suspect a paint job unless internal photos of the housing and handset were available to confirm it's not a black set painted ivory, and that the date codes confirm a pre-war set.

The later ivory 305s, 310s and 312s I recall seeing all had clear plungers, fingerwheels and switch knobs. One reason they went with clear was to avoid having to produce and inventory color matching parts for all the colors.

We know there were matching plungers on early 302s, but an ivory switch knob would be an interesting find.

[AL_as_needed]

If it is a paint-over, it seems to have been done well and with quality paint (WE referb shop?). I cannot really see any real wear to the finish by the hook switch "ears" or the flat of the hand set handle as typical with kitchen table paint jobs. Of course that could also just indicate a phone that was gently/little used as well. The dial face lettering looks pretty clean and sharp still.

[Doug Rose]

I will be getting it today, so I will let you know. With the seamless handset, open face 5J or 6D, the matching dial mask and the Ivory cloth cords, I felt it was real. At the the very least a great job. If it was done by a collector, the parts are worth much more. WE was known for painting 302s and 202s so my guess was WE or WE Refurb shop, but you guys know more than I do. Two poor pics, I saw it when it first landed on eBay and pounced. Good deal in my opinion.....Doug

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172558167309?

[paul-f]

Great price. 

I hope you get lucky!

[Doug Rose]

I got it today and it looks like a factory refub. Painted Brown Bakelite F1, 5J dial and Ivory cloth cords. It is a working telephone. Line cord is a 4 conductor used for 202s with a subset. Most of the marks came off and it lighten up considerably with a little Noxon. It was a 410, but the wires were cut on the switch and it is now a 302. Switch has a few chips and I might bring it back to just Bakelite, but that is for another day.

All in all I am very pleased with it....Doug

[WEBellSystemChristian]

Despite being a possible refurbed set, I wouldn't change the color of that line switch. It is possible that the switch has factory original paint. How many color postwar WE 410s have we seen? How do we know the switch wasn't painted from the factory?

[paul-f]

Very nice, Doug.

You didn't happen to show the mounting code.  Is it J1?

What other dates are visible on the bottom plate, handset elements, etc.?

[AL_as_needed]

too bad the line selector switch wiring was cut, but something im sure is an easy fix. Did it come in box as NOS? very clean phone inside and out.

[Doug Rose]

Paul....no marking at all. No black paint to be found inside as well. Mishmash of dates from "41 to "48. Seller owns a consignment store and that is where he got it. He will ask his seller, next time they are in.

With the dates all over, no marking, and the switch cut,  probably a WE shop refurb to get color out in the market...Doug

[unbeldi]

Let's sort out the facts and dates.

Obviously, there is nothing "factory" about this, as alluded to several times. This is some kind of refurbishment or remanufacturing and if done by WECo it was done at the shops. The factories did not paint 300-series sets after the war.  After 1949, a customer requesting an ivory telset would have received a plastic set, not a painted metal set.  It also seems highly dubious that a telephone company would provide a set with a selector key that had no function. Customer satisfaction and elimination of user errors had high priority in the Bell System. It just doesn't seem plausible that a set would be provided with a part that was in clear view and a temptation to play with, while not having any function.

So that really leaves the period after the war to 1949 as a viable time frame for investigation.  Color phones were not available from the factory during this time. Customer request had to be fulfilled in the telco shops or from the regional WECo shops.   It appears that 5J dials were in supply though.  So lets start there.

What is the date on the dial and on the number plate? The number plate looks exquisite. Probably rarely used.  What kind of finger wheel mounting star is on the dial ? Is it one with or without the pinhole ?  After the war until into the 50s it should have no pin hole, but a rotating latch type of lock.

The base was probably made in 1941. Is there a date stamp directly on the base plate? What is the date on the end of the condenser pack?  The only other direct evidence we have for this is the date on the induction coil: II-41.  The black hard-rubber selector key tops were only used before the war. Late after the introduction of color sets, the knobs were Lucite even on the black sets and had a rounded top. As found, it is consistent with the assumed base plate date.
Also note that the dial adapter is tan brown, these were no longer available in this color by 1942 or so. After the war, when production resumed, they were consistently all black, but I believe this to be the case already on the thermoplastic sets in 1941.  The rubber ring was clearly removed for painting, there is no paint residue on it.  Wouldn't they use a new, black adapter when remounting the dial ?

The cloth covered cords with the rubber insulated wires look like they are from production of ca. 1950.  This coincides with the remanufacturing date of the ringer (50). What do the date stamps tell on the brass collars ?

The most striking "disturbance" comes from the way the hookswitch/cradle cover is painted.  Factory painted sets before the war did not have this painted on the inside.  In fact, I don't recall having seen it painted this way on any set, not even the black japanned ones. I have a shop-painted ivory set of 1947 and it was painted only on the outside as well.  Why would one try to paint it this way?  I have repainted metal sets, and it didn't occur to me to take the springs off so I could paint the inside of the metal bracket carefully.  WECo didn't do this.

Also, I don't think WECo ever painted the hookswitch plungers. They would quickly show wear and then look ugly.  Even on the early color metal sets they were always black.  Only the prewar plastic sets had matching color plungers.

Not having a handset mounting code should be ok.  The original shell was probably sandblasted for restoration and there was no reason to reapply them, because the sets were supposed to be marked properly on the bottom. Not having a marking, especially since it was intended to be a 302, seem odd and would cause confusion because of the non-functioning key.

Another oddity is the strange metal piece that holds down the cloth strip between housing and base.  The only types I have seen always have a little arching extension to keep the wiring from the induction coil in place.  This one seems rather crude. Even those on the early proto-type 302s were more refined.

[Doug Rose]

It is a keeper....Doug

[Babybearjs]

If you have an old black 410 then I'd combine parts to make it a working phone. having the line switch cut and the terminal board missing is something I hate.... if all else fails you can always just switch out the cover and handset on another 410. good luck with it! first time I've seen one in Ivory...

[Doug Rose]

Thanks John....''tis a beaut...Doug