Suggestions Requested for Painted(?) Bakelite G1 That's Flaking/Peeling

[rp2813]

I searched through this forum and found discussions about restoring a decent shine to dull bakelite handsets, but nothing that addressed the situation I'm dealing with on my 10/50 500.  The handset appears to have been painted, but considering the rest of the phone looks to have seen very little use, it seems odd that the handset would have needed a paint job.  Inside at the receiver end, a faint vermilion "12" can be seen, perhaps followed by a hyphen.  12/50?  1/52?  The handset is the early type with integrated cord restraint and flat-bottom transmitter holder.

In recent months the finish -- painted or otherwise -- began to deteriorate on the spine of the handset and easily releases tiny flakes from just slight scratching with a fingernail.  The spine now feels rough in the palm of my hand.  I've attached a picture and am hoping for some advice on how best to smooth things out.  I'm not sure if Doug's steel wool treatment is appropriate for this situation, so thought it best to check here first.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[andy1702]

Not being in the US I'm not totally familiar with 500s. I do have a few, but none are this old. Now that disclaimer is out of the way, here's my thoughts...

To begin with, I thought 500s were all a little bit too modern to use bakelite. Am I wrong in this? From the photo the body of the phone doesn't look like bakelite, but the handset might be.

Looking at it logically your problem can only possibly be one of two things. Either it's something applied to the surface (eg paint or polish) that has become detached and is peeling off, or perhaps it's the material the handset is made out of that is beginning to break down. If it's the latter then the question is has this started to happen because of something it has come into contact with (light or chemical etc) or is it just happening due to age? If it's just due to age I'd expect it to be pretty even and also happening on the inside surface of the handset. If it's just on the outside then it's something it's come into contact with that is causing a reaction.

If the problem is just paint or similar then it's less serious because once it's all gone then it should leave a smooth base underneath.

What is making me think it might be bakelite is because bakelite is almost impervious to everything. The surface is really tough. Far more so than modern plastics. Because it's so tough it's also difficult to etch or scratch to provide a decent key for paint. The result is the paint flakes off. But why would they paint a phone black if it's black bakelite anyway?

If you scratch the flakes away isnthe surface below left reasonably smooth once it's all gone? If it's not then I wonder if something particularly nasty that can attack bakelite has eaten away the surface down to the filler material, a powder known as woodflour?

The first question however needs to be is it actually bakelite?

Andy.

[poplar1]

The first question however needs to be is it actually bakelite?

All Western Electric handsets marked "G1" are Bakelite. The G1s were manufactured until 1966. By 1964, black G-type handsets were also made from ABS, but these are marked "G3", not "G1."

Hardwired color 500s had "G3" handsets, which were Tenite (ca. 1954-1957/8) then ABS.

Black 500s refurbished at the Western Electric repair shops might have either G1 or G3 handsets.

[HarrySmith]

If it is a Bakelite G1 I would try the Brasso & steel wool on it.

[TelePlay]

If it is a Bakelite G1 I would try the Brasso & steel wool on it.

I would start with dry sandpaper working my way down from 600 to 320, to see how much needed to be sanded, and then work my way back up with wet sandpaper to 800 or 1000 and then 000 steel wool with Brasso followed by buffing at high speed with red rouge.

If it's a G1, it's Bakelite and Bakelite does not dissolve, can not be dissolved except under the harshest of conditions (high heat with some nasty chemicals). 409 and other solvents will turn a white cloth slightly brown but in no way would they result in the condition of that handset.

I intentionally sanded through a junk Bakelite handset to get the the rough material, and brought it back to a nice shine using sandpaper, steel wool with Brasso and then buffing. There are other examples of such recovery at the above linked topic. This is the sand through photos from that link.

[rp2813]

Thanks for the replies.  Confirming what has been stated above, this early G1 handset is indeed made of bakelite. 

Just to be clear, the steel wool is not used by itself, but as a sort of applicator for the Brasso, correct?

Where would I find a rouge wheel for my bench grinder?

[TelePlay]

Red rouge is a buffing compound, usually a wax stick with cutting agents imbedded in the wax, which when applied to a buffing wheel gives a polishing quality the cloth wheel.

Yes, the steel wool is used with the Brasso. Use 000 first and finish with 0000 with Brasso before buffing.


http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17265.0

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12264.msg176479#msg176479

[TelePlay]

This link will take you to one, of probably many similar, site that will explain by charts which compounds do what (Jeweler's rouge is red rouge) and the type of wheel that works well with a material and compound. There is even a chart showing recommended buffing wheel thickness vs diameter or different horsepower motors.

You can use any compound with any wheel, these are their recommendations for best results.

     http://www.eastwood.com/buff-wheel-buffing-compounds-selection-chart-eastwood

You can get wheels and compounds where every you can get the best price.

[rp2813]

Thanks.  I have some research to do.  I'd like to find a brick and mortar retailer for the buffing wheel and rouge. 

There is likely a local source for these items.  I bought my previous house from a (brass) musical instrument repair man.  He had a contract with the local school district and used the garage as his shop.  There was red dust coating every surface.  I couldn't start moving in until after I had hosed out the garage.   

[twocvbloke]

The first question however needs to be is it actually bakelite?

Definitely bakelite, I too have a WE500 with a G1 handset (sent to me by a friend in Texas) and it's definitely bakelite & not Tenite or ABS, it's nice, solid & heavy and doesn't smell like rotten footcheese (which is a trait of Tenite if you've not yet experienced it yet!!)...

[RotarDad]

Ralph - My thought is that you need to determine if there is paint on the handset first.  If there is, it should come off pretty easily in my experience.  I've let painted bakelite caps soak in a degreaser like Krud Kutter with great results.  I know WE painted some of these, not just the refurb shop.  I restored a dates-matching '56 501 which had a painted G-1 handset - I was surprised, but there was no doubt about the black paint.

In your case, it sure looks like paint.  Before sanding, I would try to remove the paint and see how the bakelite looks underneath.  I've had good success using very fine 2000 or 3000 grit wet sand papers on G-1s, and finishing with Novus 2, if the bakelite is decent to start with.  With sanding, conservative is the way to go imho.

[rdelius]

While at COT,the polishing compound for polishing Bakelite was off white and waxy.The red stuff was for brass.Had  seperate wheels for polishing  different materials.loose floppy wheel for final polishing.

[rp2813]

It sure looks like paint to me too.  Maybe early production 500s had painted handsets originally issued in an attempt to match the shine of the base cover.  I doubt that end users would care one way or another, since the G1 was a huge improvement in practicality over the F1.

I'll try a little degreaser and see what happens. 

[TelePlay]

While at COT,the polishing compound for polishing Bakelite was off white and waxy.The red stuff was for brass.Had  seperate wheels for polishing  different materials.loose floppy wheel for final polishing.

Yes, and that reminded me of when I first started buffing and got the compounds reversed. Went from red to white and was disappointed in that the finish was more dull after using the white and when I stopped using the red. Still have the white but don't use it anymore (it's actually an off white color).

I only have one buffer with two wheels. A three wheel buffer or two buffers allowing 4 wheels would be great. It's time consuming to change wheels so I stay with a sewn cotton for my first buffing using red or jeweler's rouge and then move to a canton flannel wheel using the blue plastic buffing compound.

If I had a third wheel, I would start with white, move to red and finish with blue. White cuts faster but does not leave as nice a shine when using the red with more fine cutting components. Starting with red means a bit more time on the wheel but the results are nice.

At the COT shop, white's shine was probably fine. I just like the additional shine provided by red rouge. This is the chart from the above link showing the materials to be buffed and the increasing order of rough from rough cut to fine finishing. I've outlined the three materials, brass, Bakelite and plastic which only recommends blue plastic compound.

[rdelius]

The white did a better job on plastic than the bakelite so I might have used pastewax to improve the shine. It was never like some of the polishing jobs seen on ebay