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Western Electric 302 Gold- Was I the Only One?

Started by WEBellSystemChristian, July 13, 2014, 10:52:52 PM

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WEBellSystemChristian

I just won a gold 302 on eBay for $69!!! It looks all original; thick open-center fingerwheel, gold dial card mask, clear plungers, ivory cloth cords (with that classic gloss finish that OPW doesn't have with their cords), and and a seamless brown handset underneath that gold paint. It seems that there is a pekin red layer of paint (or primer) between the brown handset and gold paint.

This is one of the earliest colored 302s I've ever seen; it looks like a base date from 1939, but I thought WE started making colored 302s in 1941. Can someone clarify this please?

To this moment, I'm completely baffled that there were no other bids or watchers. Whenever a colored 302 shows up on eBay, it gets at least 8 or 9 watchers and and people bidding their wallets dry. This one got zero attention, other than my bid. Did any of you see this?

Anyway, I'm really, really thrilled that I own this phone, and I can't wait to see it in person!!!

http://m.ebay.com/itm/221489139607?nav=SEARCH
Christian Petterson

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right" -Henry Ford

poplar1

Painted metal 302s are shown in the 1939 WE catalog #10.

1941 was the starting date for thermoplastic 302s--black, ivory, pekin red, gray green, and blue. Dark gold (like this one), oxidized silver, old brass and statuary bronze painted metal 302s continued to be manufactured for a while, and were reissued until at least 1954.

This phone was on my watch list. I couldn't tell from the photos whether the cords are ivory or gold.
One of the cords pictured has shows a 5 on the S-hook, for 1950 something.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

302s in the four metallic colors originally had 5H dials with finger wheels that matched the phone.  Sets refurbished in the 1950s received transparent plastic finger wheels, as apparently this gold one did.


Jim H's statuary bronze 302--refurbished in 1953--has a transparent finger wheel.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11301.msg120787#msg120787

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Fabius

Quote from: poplar1 Dark gold (like this one), oxidized silver, old brass and statuary bronze painted metal 302s continued to be manufactured for a while, and were reissued until at least 1954./quote]

Is there doumentation on these 4 finishes? Catalog or BSP?
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
C*NET 1+ 821-9905

WEBellSystemChristian

There is this picture showing all of the 302 colors:

Christian Petterson

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right" -Henry Ford

jsowers

I saw it, but I don't have any experience repainting handsets.

What makes you think it's a brown handset under the paint? I think it's Old Rose. It's probably a 50s refurb like David mentioned and they used a color handset underneath, strange as that may seem. No wonder the paint wore off.

Congratulations on getting a nice-looking gold 302. Let us know some specifics when it arrives.
Jonathan

WEBellSystemChristian

Well, look at the bottom of the earcap and cradle mark on this handset. It looks quite a bit like brown to me.
Christian Petterson

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right" -Henry Ford

jsowers

Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on July 14, 2014, 09:18:33 AM
Well, look at the bottom of the earcap and cradle mark on this handset. It looks quite a bit like brown to me.

Yes it does look brown under the paint, and in the light it looks more like red paint than rose. I guess it was painted twice. Very strange.
Jonathan

poplar1

Quote from: Fabius on July 14, 2014, 08:19:22 AM

Is there doumentation on these 4 finishes? Catalog or BSP?

These 4 colors used on 302s are part of the original list of colors for B1s and D1s. The B1s had 2H dials with matching finger wheels. The D1s had 4H dials with matching finger wheels until 1937; at that time the 4J dial with stainless steel unpainted finger wheel was used at least on ivory D1s, but not on the black nor the five metallic colors.

The following list is from Catalog #9 (1935):
Color:                       Color code:
Black                           -3
Ivory                           -4
Gray                            -5
Old Brass                      -6
Statuary Bronze            -7
Oxidized Silver              -8
Medium Gold                -11
Dark Gold                    -12


The #10 catalog (1939) shows metal 302s painted in the following colors. The new ivory,  rose,  blue, green and red sets had 5J dials with stainless finger wheels. The four metallic color 302s had 5H dials with matching finger wheels.


-4    Ivory
-6    Old Brass
-7    Statuary Bronze
-8    Oxidized Silver
-12  Dark Gold

-16  Old Rose
-18  Dark Blue
-19  Gray-Green
-20  Pekin Red


Note that Medium Gold (-11) and Gray (-5) were discontinued.
In 1941, ivory, rose, blue, green and red switched to thermoplastic housings, and their 5J fingerwheels were changed to transparent. However, the metallic colors were still painted metal sets with 5H and matching finger wheels.

The ad Christian provided is from 1949.  It shows all 9 colors (not black) with transparent finger wheels. This has been confirmed by several found dark gold and statuary bronze 302s which had been remanufactured in the WE repair shops in the 1950s.

BSP Section C30.011 covers "Colored Station Sets." Issue 4 is dated 1-2-41. Issue 6 is dated December, 1953. It would be helpful to find a copy of Issue 5 to see if there is any mention of the metallic colors and if so what type finger wheels were used.

The following unusual colors were available for modular 500s in 1983. These were stocked only at the NY (Manhattan) Service Center, listed at $18.24 each.

500 DM-12 Old Gold

500 DM-54 Brown

500 DM-63 Light Gold

Source: Material Logistics Customer Premises Equipment and Supplies Catalog, AT&T Information Systems, Issue One, November 1983.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

WEBellSystemChristian

#9
Quote from: poplar1 on July 14, 2014, 09:46:11 AM

In 1941, ivory, rose, blue, green and red switched to thermoplastic housings, and their 5J fingerwheels were changed to transparent. However, the metallic colors were still painted metal sets with 5H and matching finger wheels.

So should I either replace the fingerwheel that is currently on the phone with an alluminum unpainted (stripped of paint) fingerwheel, try to find paint that matches the set color to paint a metal fingerwheel, or leave it the way it is? I'm probably inclined to leave it as-is, but I just want to know what you guys think.
Christian Petterson

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right" -Henry Ford

unbeldi

Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on July 14, 2014, 09:18:33 AM
Well, look at the bottom of the earcap and cradle mark on this handset. It looks quite a bit like brown to me.
I agree, there can be no doubt it's a brown handset, although I don't really see any of the naked brown directly. The red color, I think, is the primer coating. All of these metallic paints, and most other fine color finishes, of the time needed a primer to stick, even on the brown Bakelite. Despite this, you see that they still didn't stick very well.

The 1940s are sometimes characterized as the onset of the second chemical revolution. In part this was fueled by the commercialization of spectroscopic instrumentation, such as infrared spectroscopy and NMR.
By the early 1950s new synthetic polymers  became available commercially,  such as the epoxy resins, and then the acrylic paints, along with more stable intense pigments.  They provided much better adhesion, wear resistance, and some didn't require primers. As a result for example, by 1955, WECo painted black F1 handsets, with the grooves, directly for the Continental line. Many of those handsets, it seems, have survived quite well.

poplar1

Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on July 14, 2014, 10:06:09 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 14, 2014, 09:46:11 AM

In 1941, ivory, rose, blue, green and red switched to thermoplastic housings, and their 5J fingerwheels were changed to transparent. However, the metallic colors were still painted metal sets with 5H and matching finger wheels.

So should I either replace the fingerwheel that is currently on the phone with an alluminum unpainted (stripped of paint) fingerwheel, try to find paint that matches the set color to paint a metal fingerwheel, or leave it the way it is? I'm probably inclined to leave it as-is, but I just want to know what you guys think.

I would leave it as is, because that's exactly the way it was remanufactured in the 1950s at the Western Electric repair shops.

The unpainted stainless steel finger wheels were never used on gold sets. So stripped aluminum would not look right.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

#12
C30.011, Issue 6, Dec. 1953 shows only "clear plastic finger wheels" in the table of painted apparatus.
It's on page 4, Table 1, paragraph C:

http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3530-c30-011-i6-dec53-colored-station-sets

So, sometime between 1941 and 1953, the finger wheel type on metallic color 302s was changed.

There were no new color sets manufactured between August, 1942 (WR-C30.011, Issue 1, 8-5-42) and January, 1949 (Bell Laboratories Record, January 1949).

The question remains whether any new sets in the four metallic colors were manufactured after 1942. Remanufactured sets with painted old brass, statuary bronze, oxidized silver, and dark gold metal housings were issued until at least 1954. The '50s reissues are the ones with clear plastic finger wheels.

>EDIT: The 1953 table's clear finger wheels are part number P-19B524 (or P-344837 when the former is not available). These are actually for 6D and 7C dials. Paragraph 5.01 states that the 6D dial supersedes the 5JB and should be used on both plastic and painted [color] sets (except 500 series). Although that rule was not always followed in the shop, still, clear plastic finger wheels were standardized by 1953 for most color sets, whether new or remanufactured. (An exception was made for some green Continentals, which had black neoprene cords and brushed metal finger wheels.)

>EDIT 2: The P-19B524 and P-344837 finger wheels could also be used on 4-type and 5-type dials when installed with the correct adapter.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Fabius

Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
C*NET 1+ 821-9905

poplar1

Christian, did you receive the phone yet? I was wondering what color the cords are--Gold? Ivory?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.