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American Electric Wood Phone with Ringer on the inside

Started by ahah64, February 04, 2017, 06:20:45 PM

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ahah64

This phone has been in a steamer trunk in my parents garage for the past 60 years. I'm younger than 60 so it was a kind of a myth until I first saw it a few months ago. I had never seen a wooden wall phone with the ringer inside,I was wondering if anyone has seen a similar phone or has any information?
Thanks!

Jack Ryan

It looks like a Type 200 wall set of Automatic Electric design. It appeared in AmE catalogues in the very late 1920s when AmE became part of the same group as AE.

It appears to have had a transmitter upgrade or is perhaps a later model.

There should be a 1929 AmE catalogue on the TCI library.

Regards
Jack


stub

 ahah64,
             Great find !!!!!   stub
Kenneth Stubblefield

War Horse

Wow, nice phone. It looks like of freaky with no bells on the outside. You should definitely get her all cleaned up and then find a nice wall for her in the house. It's too cool that your folks have had it for so long.

Jack Ryan

By the way, this phone has the optional push button for selective (code) ringing.

And for those who are interested, this is another phone that rings its own bells when the magneto is cranked.

Regards
Jack

unbeldi

#6
The circuit of these is identical to the WECo 317.

Here it is, for both wall and desk telephone.  The desk set has a separate subscriber's set of course with generator, ringer, IC, etc.

A "sure-ring" condenser was optional also, as apparently present in the set, but is not including in diagram. It should be inserted into the receiver circuit.

Jack Ryan

Quote from: unbeldi on February 05, 2017, 08:10:08 PM
The circuit of these is identical to the WECo 317.

Here it is, for both wall and desk telephone.  The desk set has a separate subscriber's set of course with generator, ringer, IC, etc.

A "sure-ring" condenser was optional also, as apparently present in the set, but is not including in diagram. It should be inserted into the receiver circuit.

Thanks Unbeldi.

I think you'd agree that the Type 200 and 317 are among many telephones to share that circuit and even more share just the audio section of the circuit. Things changed a bit with AST LB telephones.

Jack

unbeldi

Quote from: Jack Ryan on February 05, 2017, 09:30:27 PM
Thanks Unbeldi.

I think you'd agree that the Type 200 and 317 are among many telephones to share that circuit and even more share just the audio section of the circuit. Things changed a bit with AST LB telephones.

Jack
Most certainly indeed.  It is one of the fundamental circuits in telephony.

unbeldi

Nobody noticed that my diagram had the hand generator switch drawn incorrectly.   BAD!  :o
I replaced the diagram.

unbeldi

#10
Quote from: Jack Ryan on February 05, 2017, 06:37:03 PM
By the way, this phone has the optional push button for selective (code) ringing.

And for those who are interested, this is another phone that rings its own bells when the magneto is cranked.

Regards
Jack

I took notice of your language "for selective (code) ringing".
Normally, code ringing is not considered "selective", so I looked up the description in Catalog 100 of 1929.  The authors used the phrase "with push button for selective signalling".

I think this means that the push button shunts the two line wires and when the generator is operated it connects between the line and ground, so that only the drop at the exchange switchboard is activated, while none of the other stations on the subscriber party line are alerted.  So in this mode the local ringer should also not ring.

It would be interesting to trace the wires in the set and analyze the switch on the generator to determine its exact configuration.

The description of the generators in the same catalog only mentions one switch action:

       The shunt springs are made of silver and when in normal position, the
winding of the armature is shunted out of the circuit. Turning the crank
forces the shaft out against the long shunt spring—thus breaking the short
circuit.


This implies that when "selective signalling" is used, all calls, even those to any of the other stations on the same party line, must be arranged through the switchboard operator.

Jack Ryan

Quote from: unbeldi on February 06, 2017, 12:17:59 PM
I took notice of your language "for selective (code) ringing".
Normally, code ringing is not considered "selective", so I looked up the description in Catalog 100 of 1929.  The authors used the phrase "with push button for selective signalling".

I think this means that the push button shunts the two line wires and when the generator is operated it connects between the line and ground, so that only the drop at the exchange switchboard is activated, while none of the other stations on the subscriber party line are alerted.  So in this mode the local ringer should also not ring.

It would be interesting to trace the wires in the set and analyze the switch on the generator to determine its exact configuration.

Thanks Unbeldi, that was a poor choice of words. I read the description in the catalogue and interpreted it to mean that the telephone was used in a code ringing party line service with selective operator access. I have not seen the circuit of a Type 200 configured so but generally the metallic lines would be connected in parallel and the ground used as the return when signalling the operator - as you described.

An alternative use of a button in the signalling circuit is to generate the code for code ringing. This is a form of selective ringing but it is not generally called that - it is just called code ringing.

Quote
The description of the generators in the same catalog only mentions one switch action:

       The shunt springs are made of silver and when in normal position, the
winding of the armature is shunted out of the circuit. Turning the crank
forces the shaft out against the long shunt spring—thus breaking the short
circuit.


This implies that when "selective signalling" is used, all calls, even those to any of the other stations on the same party line, must be arranged through the switchboard operator.

I don't know how you come to this conclusion. In the normal position, the magneto winding is shunted; when the crank is turned, the shunt contact opens and the other contact completes the connection of the magneto across the line. This is what is shown on the buttonless circuit.

Regards
Jack

unbeldi

#12
Quote from: Jack Ryan on February 06, 2017, 06:05:20 PM
An alternative use of a button in the signalling circuit is to generate the code for code ringing. This is a form of selective ringing but it is not generally called that - it is just called code ringing.

I don't know how you come to this conclusion. In the normal position, the magneto winding is shunted; when the crank is turned, the shunt contact opens and the other contact completes the connection of the magneto across the line. This is what is shown on the buttonless circuit.

Regards
Jack

Yes, of course the set can be used for standard code ringing, as you state, when no push button is present, or when the generator is bridged across the two line sides.
I was referring to the mode of wiring the set for selectively signaling only the operator when the pushbutton shunts the two line wires.  Based on the description of the generator contacts in the catalog, such wiring would preclude the use of the generator for code ringing to other same line party stations.  If the generator or the pushbutton has an additional contact to the simple generator shunt, then it would be possible to operate the generator bridged across L1 and L2 to signal other station, rather than across (L1+L2) and G when signaling the central office.

I don't know the configuration of the pushbutton on these sets, that's why I suggested examination of it.  I do suspect that it is not just a simple shunt across the line, but also switches one side of the generator from ground to line.

I think the use of the push button for producing the short/long pulse cadences is unlikely, I don't recall having encountered that. It appears as rather difficult to achieve, the user would have to crank the generator with one hand and produce the proper timing with the other.  I think it takes quite some training or practice for success.  Normally, the cadence was achieved by cranking the generator just a short period of time, e.g. one rotation, vs. two or three.

Jack Ryan

#13
Quote from: unbeldi on February 06, 2017, 06:35:06 PM
Yes, of course the set can be used for standard code ringing, as you state, when no push button is present, or when the generator is bridged across the two line sides.
I was referring to the mode of wiring the set for selectively signaling only the operator when the pushbutton shunts the two line wires.  Based on the description of the generator contacts in the catalog, such wiring would preclude the use of the generator for code ringing to other same line party stations.  If the generator or the pushbutton has an additional contact to the simple generator shunt, then it would be possible to operate the generator bridged across L1 and L2 to signal other station, rather than across (L1+L2) and G when signaling the central office.

OK, I see where you are coming from now - thanks.

Quote
I don't know the configuration of the pushbutton on these sets, that's why I suggested examination of it.  I do suspect that it is not just a simple shunt across the line, but also switches one side of the generator from ground to line.

Good idea; I would like to be enlightened myself. Button contact configurations I have seen on other phones for selective operator calling are not trivial.


Quote
I think the use of the push button for producing the short/long pulse cadences is unlikely, I don't recall having encountered that. It appears as rather difficult to achieve, the user would have to crank the generator with one hand and produce the proper timing with the other.  I think it takes quite some training or practice for success.  Normally, the cadence was achieved by cranking the generator just a short period of time, e.g. one rotation, vs. two or three.

A large proportion of railway phones and some telco phones use a button for magneto code ringing. The image attached is of poor quality but the code ringing button is clearly marked.

Either press the button and code ring with the magneto or crank the magneto and code with the button. Either way, it requires two hands.

When not using the phones, the users pat their heads and rub their stomachs.

Regards
Jack

PS I should have mentioned that the other button on this phone shorts the line wires and configures ringing with ground return.

unbeldi

Quote from: Jack Ryan on February 06, 2017, 07:19:45 PM
When not using the phones, the users pat their heads and rub their stomachs.
I think that would be a good exercise to start mastering a push button code-signaling magneto phone.

Quote
PS I should have mentioned that the other button on this phone shorts the line wires and configures ringing with ground return.

Divided ringing is of course a possible scenario as well, just as metallic ringing is.   That provides some (semi-) selectivity of stations signaled by code ringing.


Attached is possible schematic for the metallic ringing variety with ground-return AC signaling to the operator only.
When the subscriber cranks the generator without pushing the button, all ringers on the line sound, but when the button is pushed, the line wires are shorted, and generator return is switched to ground which completes the drop circuit in the exchange, so that the drop triggers when cranking the magneto.

This diagram also shows the sure ring condenser installed.