Problem with 233G & 685A - Help needed.

[RotarDad]

I need some help please from the WE Coin Collector experts here on the forum to get mine working!  I recently acquired a complete '60 233G including relay and all internal wiring.  I also located a nice '65 685A subset with the 425E network.  I can't make it work, despite my efforts to follow the BSP wiring diagrams for both units.  Here's what it does currently:

1) I get dialtone, but the dial won't work other than to "break" dial tone (I believe this only means the dial contact to shut off the earpiece is working).
2) The dial tone will "time out" and then I get the intermittent tone telling me to start over.  Hanging up has no effect - the intermittent dial tone continues.  I have to disconnect/reconnect the wire from "R" on the network to "L1" on the terminal strip in the 685 to get the dial tone reset.
3) I have disconnected the dial shunt on the relay with no impact on dial operation.
4) If I remove the "GN" network to "L2" terminal wire in the 685, the dial tone gets louder.
5) I have attempted to clean the various contacts and wire connections, also to no benefit.
6) When the payphone is connected, it kills the dial tone in other phones in the house and renders them inoperable.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  I'm thinking this may be switchhook related, but not sure.   Thank you!!!

[Ktownphoneco]

Hi Paul  ....  I'm not a payphone expert by any stretch, but I've restored a couple of 233's, complete with a working coin mechanism installed, a working coin relay and a 685-A subscriber set.   
Could you just go over what's installed in the set you have, and whether or not your using the set with some sort of payphone controller unit.     Have you checked the dial for proper operation prior to it being wired into the circuit, and have you done the same with the hook switch ?     If you strongly suspect the hook switch assembly, remove the conductor connections and use an ohm meter or continuity tester to ensure that in the off hook position, all the springs that are suppose to mate, are in fact doing so, and the all the springs that are not suppose to contact each other, aren't.
Do the same with the hook switch in the on hook position.
Is the payphone a pre-pay or post pay coin collector ?

Jeff Lamb
   

[RotarDad]

Hi Jeff - Thanks for the quick reply! The phone is a pre-pay and I am not using a controller.  I know the relay will not function without one.  Your thoughts are good.  I will attempt to review the dial and hook switch for proper operation.  The payphones are beasts - lots of heavy parts and lots of back and forth to disassemble/reassemble!   This phone looks like it was removed from service decades ago (still has the original dial card and '68 dated top flag instruction card), and it is dusty, etc.

Did you buy one of the controllers from Gray-Western on Ebay?

[RotarDad]

Jeff - Do you have a simplified wire diagram for the 233 with a 685?  The BSP diagrams are frustrating to me.  They seem to show the same screw contact in more than one place with different wires connected.......  Thanks!!

[G-Man]

See if this helps...

[RotarDad]

Thanks G-Man!  I see this is for a 685B where mine is an A.  I did review a very similar diagram for the A but having it in color does help.  One thing I don't understand is why they show 2 sets of red and green wires connecting to the subset.  I assume I need to jump so both destinations share the red and green - is this correct?

One other thing I can't confirm is where the #3 contact for the relay attaches. This would be the 100V power from the central office to activate the relay.  I know it doesn't relate to my issue, but this diagram just says "Y", but that looks like it refers to the yellow wire, not the Y contact on the pile up.  Some diagrams seem to show a different connection - maybe I'm just having trouble reading these things......

So far no change in my results.  I have cleaned the switchhook contacts with CLR and ensured they work properly.  The dial looks good also.  Must be wiring somewhere......  The switchhook won't reset the dial tone once it times out, and the dial will break dial tone, but nothing more.  Thanks for any thoughts....

[Ktownphoneco]

Paul   .....  Yes, I have one of Stan Schreier's controllers installed on my Northern 233H, which I believe is the same as the 233G.    It works perfectly and has for almost 12 months now.   Stan saw your post, and mine, and sent the following message to me.        Note the part about tripping the coin trigger in the relay to simulate a coin deposit.   
I've attached a pdf showing my set up, and also the schematic I use to wire the sets.      I restored a Western 233H last fall, and will be wiring that up this summer.    I plan on buying another relay from Stan when I do that.     Stan's message to me is below.        ......    Jeff 

Jeff
    I passed by the Rotary Forum and saw that one of the members (Rotardad) needs a simple 233 to a 685 diagram.  There's a link to the CD that I send out with my controllers on the Forum

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8522.0;attach=45177 .

    There's a simple diagram on page 10 of the CD.  Ignore the yellow lead on the left side of the diagram. The red, green and yellow are the 3 wires in the cable going to the controller. Since there's no controller just the red and green are used and go directly to tip and ring.  Also, he has to remember to flip down the coin trigger in the coin relay to simulate a deposit.

Regards
Stan

[G-Man]

Two cables with the same color code were used. One was quad and the other was triplet cable and they had the following colors:

   
• QUAD
  Red - "R" to "TR"
  Green - "GN" to "W"
  Yellow - "RR" to "R"
  Black - "B" to "T"

   
• TRIPLET
  Red       "L1" to "Y" Also, one side of the telephone line connects here
  Green    "L2" to "L" "                     DITTO                                        "
  Yellow   not used for your application

It does not matter if you use a cable with different color, just connect the wires to their corresponding terminals.
Also make sure that the 685 subset is wire correctly, particularly that the other end of the slate-brown wire from the "C"-terminal is connected properly.
See if this wiring diagram is any less confusing...

[RotarDad]

Thank you Jeff, Stan and G-Man!!!  I'll digest all of this great info tomorrow and report back.  I really appreciate the help.  I know both Stan and G-Man helped me with my 236G a couple years back. That one I put together from two phones plus some parts and all went pretty smoothly.  Not this time.... My 685 is really nice but had no wires besides the 4 ringer wires.  I followed the 685A diagram, but maybe my issue is here...... Thanks again!

[RotarDad]

Success!!!  All 3 of your sets of information were very helpful - thank you!!  My issue was that I didn't realize there were 2 sets of wires connecting the Coin Collector to the Subset.  My 233G had the original wires clipped inside, and I thought both reds were one wire, same with greens - not so!  Once G-Man cleared that up, then the diagrams made more sense.  Jeff's NE diagram even used the terms "quad" and "triple" and now I know what that means.  The last issue was the "C" connection on the Net, which Stan's diagram clarified.   I'm very pleased!!

One more question - how was the terminal strip on the 685A intended to be used?  It appears that the "quad" cable connects directly to the Net while the "triple" cable is designed to connect to the terminal strip, along with the ringer wires - true?   Or, were there jumpers connecting the Net to the terminal strip?  I've seen quite a few pics of 685As on Ebay and none of the terminal strips are wired the same way.  I'd like to have my 685 wired in the correct way if possible.

Thanks again to all 3 of you for the speedy and very informative replies!!!!

[Ktownphoneco]

I'm not sure Paul.    One of the former Bell technicians on the forum might be able to give you a direct answer.    However, if I had to guess, I'd imagine that with the exception of "C" terminal on the network, all other connections would made directly to the network.      There doesn't seem to be much point in used a bunch of jumpers to connect the network to the terminal board, and creating a bunch of additional, and unnecessary connections.    Plus time is money in any business, and I would imagine the faster an installation could be completed, the better.    The 685-A was also used as a subset for sets such as the 211, and I suspect that the terminal board in the subset would be used extensively in such installations.
I attached a picture in "pdf", showing how mine is connected.

I also meant to ask you if you needed a top and a bottom card for your set ?       If so, let me know and I'll email them to you.     They pretty much fit perfectly, but may need to be trimmed a hair.

Jeff
       

[RotarDad]

Thanks Jeff - The internal pic helps.  I see your net is an older style with the soldered "C" terminal.  Mine is a screw so I can either attach directly to the net or run a jumper to the terminal board.  Now that it works, I need to finalize and clean up the wiring.  Then I'll disassemble and clean/restore.  Hopefully it will work once it's all back together!

I don't need any cards for this one, but thanks for the offer!  This phone has a top flag only with its original card and matching dial center.

[poplar1]

In a 500-type circuit, with the phone off-hook and the dial at rest, the incoming line is connected to C and RR of the network (input). The output of the network is GN (receiver), B (transmitter) and R (common transmitter/receiver).

The dial pulsing contacts, and at least one side of the line,  are in series with the line before it reaches C and RR.

L1, L2, G on the network; and L1, L2, 1, 2, etc. on the terminal strip, are not internally wired to the network, but are merely convenient points for connecting wires. So, electrically it doesn't matter if you use L1 and L2 on the network or on the terminal strip.

However, since the ringer is already connected to L1 and L2 of the terminal strip, it will be necessary to move the black and red ringer wires to the network if you decide to use the network terminals.

In the 685A diagram above, the dotted lines show the factory connections for the blue jumper wire (from RR to L1) and the brown jumper wire (or slate-brown soldered wire) from C to 2. Thus, the tip side (green) of the line is permanently connected to RR through the blue jumper. The ring side (red) is connected to L2, then goes through the switch hook and dial back to terminal 2, then to C.

For use with a 234G, the factory wiring is changed slightly, but the end result is the same, that off-hook and with the dial at rest, the line will be input to C and RR of the network. In the wiring shown with solid lines for the blue and brown jumpers, C is now permanently connected to L2, and L1 is in series with the switch hook and dial before going to RR.

If you follow the diagram wiring, but forget to remove the blue jumper completely, then you have bypassed the switch hook and dial: The line is permanenly connected directly to C and RR, so hanging up will not disconnect the line, and you can't dial out.

[RotarDad]

Poplar1 - Thanks very much for this super-detailed explanation!  I now realize that in Table A in the lower left of the diagram, it shows notes below.  Note 2 indicates the "C" jumper should be moved to L2, and note 3 says the second jumper should be removed.  This is how my 685A is wired, which confirms I have it correct.  I now understand the diagram much better after reading your post several times, and reviewing the diagram.  These darn diagrams are a bit like a foreign language - I really appreciate the time you took to explain it and the electrical operation of the circuit.  Thank you!!!

[RotarDad]

Poplar1 - One more diagram question if I may:  Looking at the coin relay section - Contact 3 connects to the terminal strip at "T" as does the handset transmitter red wire.  The diagram shows an "R" terminal in this circuit also which makes no sense to me - is this an error??  Thank you again!