1921 Bell system Public Telephone sign on Ebay #361985633290- Is it Real?

[rfkimba]

Hi Friends,
I was reviewing the attached  current Ebay listing for this nice condition 1921  Public Telephone Sign. I checked several websites and  3 reference textbooks and cannot find ?an image of the same sign. The seller,    indicates it has porcelain ledging . We see the sloppy white porcelain on the reverse. The sign perimeter has a 1 /4"  thicker white band indicating manufacture closer to 1921?   However the Public Telephone lettering is a thicker font than normally seen and the Bell System  circle lacks any lettering outside  the  Bell in a circular ring. It looks real to me   .
Any opinions as to its authenticity and value?
Thanks,
Bob Farber
ATCA, TCI

[Sargeguy]

Hmmm.  Looks like people could be doing there homework, but I am not convinced.  This style is a known fake.  That does not automatically mean it is not based off an original sign, but this one is still a fake in my opinion.  In addition to what you mentioned earlier , look at how there is a distinct border around the back edge, which you don't see on real porcelain signs of this era. Also, the lack of chipping and rust are a red flag (according to my 8-year old daughter ).  Contact the seller and ask if a magnet sticks to the sign.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272682918317?

[rfkimba]

Greg and All,
I did find a reference and photo   for this sign's different  design in Payphone History (2007) by Ron Knappen p 441 . I scanned the page .
The reference specifies the new sign design came out in 1931 as detailed in the NW Bell magazine.  The sign was from Northwestern   Bell which covered the Iowa territory. The seller, an early ATCA member indicates it was located inside in an Iowa  library for 40 yrs until he removed it, hence the minimal corrosion. I did attach the sellers response to my questions which are redundant since they were well detailed in the signs description.
Unfortunately I lack any collecting experience with these 1931 era Northwest Bell sign designs . 
Do the grommets look genuine when you look closely?
It is my hope Signguy or Fabiius  or someone else with  knowledge about this porcelain detail can weigh in to validate what you  indicate was not consistent with porcelain sign design of this era. 
Any feedback is most appreciated.
Sincerley,
Bob Farber

[Sargeguy]

 I looked through the Payphone History book and I didn't see an example of the sign, but it can be hard  considering the book's layout.  I am less concerned about the signs authenticity based upon the fact that you just stated.   The design of the sign is consistent with the redesign took place in 1931.  At that time, signs were introduced that did not feature the name of the Bell operating company or AT&T.   This would  suggest a manufacturing date in the 1930s or early 40s. I have seen other signs from  this era that have similar grommets. The fact that the sign is being offered by and  ATCA member, and has a provenance is also reassuring.

[Fabius]

This is a good example about how limited we can be in identifying reproductions  based only on pictures. I would ask the seller if he will offer a refund if requested.
  I see the seller offers a 14 day return.


On the back I wonder why there are those evenly spaced vertical lines?

[Fabius]

I've been in contact with Steve who is the owner of the sign on eBay. He sent me an interesting article which I attached. I have the sign seen at the bottom of the article. I'm in Michigan but when I get back to Indiana in a few days I'll post front and back pictures of it.

[Fabius]

All I can say is WOW!

[Sargeguy]

Cool, I have been looking for that article.  The signs discussed are the "1931 redesign" I mentioned earlier and refer to as the '31 Bell.  I was just toying with the idea of starting a seperate section for the '31 Bell in the "Bell System sign types" thread.  Currently it is a sub-section of '21 Bell. It is basically a standardized form of the '21 Bell without the telco logo.  The round flange seems pretty common but all the other types are harder to find.  I have a square 11" flat version.  I always assumed that these were used in limited areas but this article makes it seem that they were intended to be used nationwide. This was during the Great Depression, when telcos were having difficulty finding revenue, so buying new signs may have been a low priority. 

[Fabius]

The article is from a Northwestern Bell Magazine. The article says that 4 departments reps meet in Omaha (Northwestern Bell Territory) to come up with the new design. Notice no mention of AT&T, Western Electric or the Bell System is mention in the article as being involved in the 1931 redesign, only "Our company..." is mentioned. Could it be that these signs were designed by Northwestern Bell Telephone for use in it's territory? Seems unusual that if this was a Bell System effect that they would meet in Omaha and not at AT&T headquarters(NYC).

[Sargeguy]

I forget that sometimes the Northwest is in the Mid-West, I assumed it was in Washington or Oregon.  That would explain the relative scarcity of most of these signs.  It looks like this design had a direct influence on the '39 bell design.

[rfkimba]

Tom ,
Thank you for your kind efforts to illuminate the 1931 Bell sign revisions . Your scanned page seems to show where the lower  part of the plate #23  from page 441 of Knappen's Payphone History Book (2007) came from.
I showed Ron Knappen photo's of this sign including the reverse porcelain  and he felt it to be "authentically  old" . I am convinced its authentic.
Sincerely,
Bob Farber
ATCA , TCI

[rfkimba]

Hi Guys,
I won the  Ebay auction   for this 1931 transitional Bell!  Got the sign for $232 + SH.
Thanks for your feedback.
Regards,
Bob Farber
ATCA, TCI

[Fabius]

Congrats on getting a scarce sign.