AE Type 21 Stick

[poplar1]

Stub,

An AE 21A is a different phone. It has a Bakelite base that accepts a flush mounted Type 24 dial and is AST.

It's not the same as an AE 21 with a modular transmitter and receiver upgrade.

Regards
Jack

Well, the Type 21 desk stand of the 1930s also was already made with a Bakelite body, even before the 21A.

One aspect that does appear to distinguish the 21A is that it indeed used the new style transmitter and receiver elements that were in use starting late 30s and the 1940s.

However, even in 1940, the catalog specifies that the same instrument, 21A, can be ordered with a metal base.

It seems to me, the suffix A is merely an evolutionary catalog designation, rather than designating a new type. This is pretty much what the Type 21 did all along since 1921/2: evolve.

PS: I would not exchange the receiver or transmitter that were found on the set, unless the original manufacturing date can be determined and all of the exact components found.  As is, the set is perfectly authentic, I feel.  — And the found components probably function a lot better than anything previously.  The state of technology, as found, is just as worthy of collecting, preserving, and presenting as any earlier state.

I'm not sure that I'm reading correctly what unbeldi wrote -- that the set is "perfectly authentic" -- but I'm going to disagree with that, and agree with Jack.

There is no way, in my opinion, that this phone could have originally had a Type 23 dial AS WELL AS the capsule type transmitter units and receiver units. The Type 24 dial was introduced, and installed on desk stands, probably 10 years before the capsule type transmitter units or receiver units were available, so I don't see how this phone could be authentic, as originally furnished from the factory.

It's more likely that the transmitter and receiver were replacements, either in the field or in a repair shop, just as we find pre-1935 WE E1-type handsets that have been upgraded from E1B (with 395B "bullet" transmitter) to E1E (with 625A transmitter with F1 unit), or pre-1937 202s, originally furnished with E1B or E1E handsets,  that have been upgraded with F1-type handsets.

[LarryInMichigan]

If it helps any, here is a picture of the inside of the base which shows much of the bottom of the dial.

Larry

[stub]

You could have it your way , at A E !!!       stub

[oldguy]

very nice, I really the AE21, the transmitter pivot is way cool looking.

[Jack Ryan]

If this dial is a Type 23, and there was a Type 24, does that mean that this model dial was only made for about a year?  The base of this phone is metal.

The Type 23 dial was released in 1923 but the Type 24 was released in 1926. The flush metal base accepts either dial but the later metal base and the Bakelite base only accept the Type 24 and later dials (without using an adaptor).

The AE 1, released in 1925, was originally fitted with a Type 23 dial as well. When fitted with a Type 24 dial, the dial is surface mounted in the same way as the dial would mount on this AE 21, a 50AL or B Handset mounting.

Jack

[Jack Ryan]

However, even in 1940, the catalog specifies that the same instrument, 21A, can be ordered with a metal base.

Not that metal base though, the later one that allowed a Type 24 dial to flush mount.

Jack

[unbeldi]

However, even in 1940, the catalog specifies that the same instrument, 21A, can be ordered with a metal base.

Not that metal base though, the later one that allowed a Type 24 dial to flush mount.

Jack

What kind of metal base is completely irrelevant in the context, as the quotation was from the 1940 catalog, no one would assume to order a base 15 years older at that time.  The point was to correct the statement that the 21A was a different Bakelite set in contrast to the earlier sets, when in fact the earlier sets were already made from Bakelite for some time.  Point is they could all be made in Bakelite or metal, and there was an almost continuous evolution of characteristics.

@Poplar1: Also,   "authentic" does not mean "factory original".  No where is such a definition evident, and the dictionary certainly doesn't say so.  Authentic may be called any thing that was authorized equipment, not fake or falsified, whether refurbished or not, just like an F1 handset was as authentic on a 202 as an E1 was.

[Jack Ryan]

just like an F1 handset was as authentic on a 202 as an E1 was.

But you didn't call that combination a 302 - it was still a 202. Just like this candlestick remains an AE 21, not an AE 21A.

I think we are wasting too much oxygen on a side issue. I didn't mean to take the discussion off on a tangent.

Jack

[LarryInMichigan]

If I might step into the crossfire for a moment, this phone has a metal base with a cutout to accommodate the bottom part of the finger stop which screws into the back of the dial.  I have seen at least one AE stick with a bakelite base and a recessed dial opening.  I do not know if that was considered a type 21 or not.  I have a type 1 with a bakelite base and a surface mounted type 24 dial.  The base does not have a cutout to accommodate the bottom of the finger stop of a type 23 dial.  I also have a type 1A with a bakelite base with a recessed dial opening, and I used to have a couple of type 1As with metal bases and recessed dial openings. 

My AE type 2 is bakelite and has a type 24 dial surface mounted.  I do not recall if it has a cutout for a type 23 dial finger stop, and I do not want to take the phone apart again to look.


Larry

[Jack Ryan]

Larry,

It is less crossfire and more cross purposes - it is hard sometimes to get onto the same page with words alone.

You are correct in that the AE 1 Bakelite base does not have a cutout for the Type 23 dial finger stop. AE says that the Monophone was released in 1925 and there was no production Type 24 dial in 1925 (although it was known). For an AE 1 to exist in 1925. there was either a Bakelite base with a cutout, an ugly mount or a metal base with a cutout was used.

The patent for the AE 1 shows a metal base with a cutout and such bases were already used on the AE 21. Chances are, a metal base was used initially but that is a guess - I haven't seen any AE words to that effect.

Jack

[Jack Ryan]

Roughly:

1921 – AE 21 released. Brass base, Mercedes dial, Booster & series ccts
1923 – Type 23 dial introduced
1926 – Type 24 dial introduced
1930 – Bakelite base introduced (brass is an option), Booster, series & AST ccts
1936 – Type 24A36 dial introduced
1940 – AE 21A released. Uses capsule transmitter & receiver, booster & AST ccts

E&OE
Jack

[Doug Rose]

If I might step into the crossfire for a moment, this phone has a metal base with a cutout to accommodate the bottom part of the finger stop which screws into the back of the dial.  I have seen at least one AE stick with a bakelite base and a recessed dial opening.  I do not know if that was considered a type 21 or not.  I have a type 1 with a bakelite base and a surface mounted type 24 dial.  The base does not have a cutout to accommodate the bottom of the finger stop of a type 23 dial.  I also have a type 1A with a bakelite base with a recessed dial opening, and I used to have a couple of type 1As with metal bases and recessed dial openings. 

My AE type 2 is bakelite and has a type 24 dial surface mounted.  I do not recall if it has a cutout for a type 23 dial finger stop, and I do not want to take the phone apart again to look.


Larry

My AE21 is metal with the dial cutout as well. Steve's repaired dial fit in perfectly. Mine originally had a 23 (thanks Craig as I had no idea) and I still have the fingerwheel of the 23 which is really sharp looking. Nice phone Larry....Doug

[Jon Kolger]

This number card retainer is for an AE dial blank, NOT an AE dial/fingerwheel.  I've never seen on of these retainers used on a dial in all my years of collecting.  The retainer you need is the typical AE retainer that consists of the number card retaining ring with two tabs (one inside and one outside), the number card backing plate, the rotating lock for the retainer ring, and the large headed screw that holds the fingerwheel and the locking tab in place.  Of course there is also a number card and a clear number card protector.  I'm sure this has been discussed on this forum previously.

[Jack Ryan]

This number card retainer is for an AE dial blank, NOT an AE dial/fingerwheel.  I've never seen on of these retainers used on a dial in all my years of collecting.  The retainer you need is the typical AE retainer that consists of the number card retaining ring with two tabs (one inside and one outside), the number card backing plate, the rotating lock for the retainer ring, and the large headed screw that holds the fingerwheel and the locking tab in place.  Of course there is also a number card and a clear number card protector.  I'm sure this has been discussed on this forum previously.

I have quite a few Type 23 dials and they all have this type of retainer. The rotating lock is for a Type 24 and later dial, not a Type 23.

Jack

[LarryInMichigan]

The card retainer is most definitely correct for the dial.  The round piece which screws into the finger wheel and over which the retainer ring fits holds down a couple of pieces which are parts of the ratchet mechanism.  This is the first dial of this type that I have had, but one I had things apart, it was easy to see how it was designed to fit together and function.


Larry